Waiving taxes until launch - hurt or help?

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Gideon Thrax, Sep 16, 2016.

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  1. Stryker Sparhawk

    Stryker Sparhawk Bug Hunter

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    There will soon be a mechanism in place that should an Avatar choose to pursue it, will provide a daily stipend to cover the rent on a taxable row lot.

    While there are many RP reasons for not working with the Oracle, the mechanism alone should be incentive to continue taxes.
     
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  2. Korim Rackham

    Korim Rackham Avatar

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    :rolleyes:Oh thAts right game hasn't "launched" yet.:rolleyes:
     
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  3. Astor Cerberus

    Astor Cerberus Avatar

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    I understand and agree. Median calculation is valid to protect against the top 10% or 1% but not to protect against the bottom 60% who don't actively play.

    In fact, I think that the 'unplaying masses' also have large impacts on other calculations, like how many lottery tickets, etc). If only 1,000 out of 10,000 people are actively playing then a relatively large number of lots are being given away.

    I'm curious how Port accounts for inactive (easy) or underactive (more tricky) accounts. I think a large batch of alts probably fall into the underactive category. ie. they logged in to claim some rewards, maybe select a lot, but don't 'play'.

    Astor
     
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  4. mass

    mass Avatar

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    How about waive taxes on one property per account until release. The last thing I want to see is the people who just placed a bunch of properties to scalp or rent for real money getting a free ride. I'd even be in favor of an incremental increase in property tax for every property placed above 1 to discourage the RMTers.
     
  5. Tahru

    Tahru Avatar

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    One of the reasons they said they needed the last wipe for was economy testing. This is a fundamental part of the economy.
     
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  6. CharlieChaos

    CharlieChaos Avatar

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    Taxes are not difficult lets do the math here.

    Row
    500 per a day
    15000-15500 Month
    183000 Yearly

    COTO
    I've ought as low as 900 see them average right now 1,300 they are worth 3,500 to rent

    53 COTO Year thats 63k a Year for rent if paid in purchased COTO

    COTO market is still flooded go hunt then buy COTO
     
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  7. Rufus D`Asperdi

    Rufus D`Asperdi Avatar

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    To simplify what @CharlieChaos2 said... You can pay your rent for a month on a row lot for between 4 and 5 thousand gold... Buy 4 COTO with the gold.

    To the OP. No, taxes should not be removed if there is any hope of balancing the economy before the marketing begins and the game is officially launched. That is one of the primary purposes for going persistent... to be able to see and adjust the real economy. To removed one of the largest drains from it would defeat the purpose.
     
  8. Gideon Thrax

    Gideon Thrax Avatar

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    I try not to include pledge COTOs in discussions concerning in game economics and taxes. They're certainly a resource but the in game market is flooded. I expect their trade price will increase to something far more substantial soon enough... no one is going to buy COTOs from the add-on store to sell at a loss in game once the pledge coins are used up (ref: RMT gold sales).

    I also don't think that taxes are of any consequence as a gold sink yet. I'm shooting from the hip here, but based on land rush numbers and the census - there are only about half of the available deeds in play and I'm guessing the largest majority of deeds placed are tax free. There really is no gold sink to speak of regarding taxes right now.
     
  9. Tibs

    Tibs Avatar

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    That many deeds are tax free doesn't invalidate the point: the developers will still see how the tax rate affects those playing with taxed parcels.
     
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  10. yarnevk

    yarnevk Avatar

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    I read that semantics to be MEDIAN is an adjective describing level, not gold - that it is a reference to the average gold made by the player that has leveled halfway. With the Pareto distribution that 90% of the wealth held by 10% of players, the spread between max vs. median gold will be much larger than that, this 4-5x max is realistic spread for that being the average stat.

    Yes the tax rate is out of sync with economic changes because it was decided before income nerfs, they need to state both what the 'median' and 'average (or mean)'.

    Yes there will always be lag between sinks and sources with people coming and going, which is why they need to follow trends but not overeact and end up with a runaway economy.

    It was also not smart to have new player bundles with housing, if the intent was not being able to afford a house until you level halfway.
     
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2016
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  11. Tahru

    Tahru Avatar

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    But... I cannot escape the view unambiguous definition of "median" as being the middle value in an absolute population. And.. I hated statistics. ;) Naturally the first rule of statistics is framing it.
     
  12. Kenryuu

    Kenryuu Avatar

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    I think all players should be given a limited amount of tax waiver credit on birth that can be used to help make ends meet on starting a new game. This should probably pay for tax on a row lot for 2 RL months, which is a reasonable amount of time for a casual player to skill to the point of being self sufficient.
    This would be better than a complete waiver until launch. It wouldn't benefit the seasoned, but would be a huge leg up for the newbies.
     
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  13. Leelu

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    As an unforeseen problem , having only a few types of lot ownership have unbalanced the economy as now presented.
    There is as yet no in between.

    To create a balance as in the real world , condos, low income homes or apartments, rv parks, hunting lodges etc. need to be added ( these need not be as I have noted as these are just rl examples and not a Novian creation as yet); all profiting the inside economy controlled by Port.

    Those in between housing options are what keep real life banks afloat, investing in optional non ownership homes, will bring in a drive for lot ownership and balance the economy. An in between options also helps the new player in aspiring for a home of their own. As in rl , not all the population own land or homes.

    The conundrum is implementing it in such a way as not to tip the balance one way or another. I do not believe just renting rooms will keep up with hopefully the influx of players we will have at a later date.
     
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  14. lollie

    lollie Avatar

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    If this was to happen it would affect the real dollar value of tax-free deeds (negatively) and increase the real dollar value of taxed deeds (in the short term, while game "wasn't released"). Who knows how long "release" is from now anyway?

    That's also something to be aware of.
     
  15. Anvar

    Anvar Avatar

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    This.

    Also they need to see how the rate compares to gold earned and maybe adjust that too to get it right.
     
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  16. Ashlynn [Pax]

    Ashlynn [Pax] Avatar

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    I'm curious to know how many people here commenting have tax-free lots so are completely removed from the issue of grinding tax gold. Because I am suspicious of your motives.
     
  17. Anvar

    Anvar Avatar

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    Not entirely true as those who have a taxfree lot deed also quite a few from what Ive seen of the community have multiple add on deeds, especially some Pot owners so theyll be paying taxes too.

    I dont own a tax free lot, I backed the game at the start in the beginning of the kickstarter, and got a row house on the addon store so I pay taxes and it in no way bothers me infact I see it as overall beneficial to the game that there are those
    out there with tax free lots as they helped get the game funded, and putting that much cash up front deserves the tax free status ie the difference in price between a basic account + rowhouse (45$ +85$) vs 275$ for the tax free row house is a difference
    of 145$ for that and an extra25$ you could buy 200 crowns, thats nearly 4 years of rent accounted for in the cost of the account. Ive not checked it out for the other properties in terms of years rent but it seems fair to me.

    Also they set the rent rates as they said pre wipe to aim to be so that a row house would take the average player 1-2 hrs a week approx to earn the rent , thats 3500 and a very easy amount to make still in an hour, let alone 2. And if you
    arnt playing the game enough to afford 1-2 hours of play a week for the rent then you can simply buy some crowns, this amounts to a sub of only 4$ a month for a row house or 8$ for a village, pretty cheap and you didnt have to pay
    for effectively 4 years up front ;)
     
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  18. Gideon Thrax

    Gideon Thrax Avatar

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    The tax-free deeds that came in pledges are a significantly greater value than the add-on store deeds.... I did a break down of a Baron pledge and it worked out that the tax free city deed (and additional tax free village deed) ended up costing considerably less than their taxable add-on store counterparts. Add to that a trove of items and gold crowns that were loaded into high end pledges and you can easily add a couple taxable deeds and still not have to pay rent for months.... even longer when you use a Royal Scepter.

    I can understand why some folks want to think that lowering taxes will devalue their pledges... there's just nothing to support it. The idea that low taxes hurts the P2W aspect of pledge deeds is all smoke.
     
  19. lollie

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    I was talking about the OP's proposal of completely removing taxes "until release", whenever that is. That would certainly lower real dollar prices for tax-free and increase real dollar value for taxable deeds while this was going on.
     
  20. Gideon Thrax

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    Probably... but who cares? Empty lots, absent of home and property deeds are already being listed for thousands of dollars and why should anyone care? I know there's a mixed bag of opinions when it comes to the marketplace, but when it comes to fun and the health of this game and community the game should come first.
     
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