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Warding is too strong

Discussion in 'Release 66 Feedback' started by Hemswal The Descended, Jun 3, 2019.

  1. Hemswal The Descended

    Hemswal The Descended Avatar

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    Hello,

    I'm primarily a fire mage. I don't PvP often, but when I do, I use fire.

    TLDR; Warding is way too strong. Nearly correct math below proves it. Someone please double check my math. Xp to ward off this tree with passives: APR 55 mil. This fire tree costs APR 175 mil.

    If someone has the following passives at GM, they are 100% immune to me, even with fire specialization:

    Magic Warding, Fire Warding, and Fire Proof. (Roughly 55 million to GM these 3 passives)

    All of these GMed = 225 Fire Resistance.

    If one were to also use Douse (+20 fire resist) and Shield of Ice (+15% fire resist) at GM, they would have 281 Fire Resistance.

    Let's not forget warding gems and jewels. Ring + Necklace + Chest = 50 more resist. I don't even know how much warding you get from weapons if they have warding gems in them. Let's assume they don't even have warding gems in there. We're at a whopping 338 resist. Also, It can go higher too with certain enchantments.


    Ok, let's look at my fire tree.

    [​IMG]

    I have 1268 points in this tree. This is over 175 Million XP to get a fire tree to this point. There are some people with more fire skill than me. There are a lot more people with less fire skill than me. However, you look at it, I spent about 175 mil xp to get to this point, unless my math is dead wrong. Might be. Maybe I spent more? Or maybe a little less? Someone feel free to double check for me. By the way, 175 Million xp is what it takes to get to around adventurer level 103-104. So, nearly 1/2 of all of the XP I've ever gotten has been sunk into the fire tree alone.


    6 Stack Ring of Fire:
    [​IMG]
    -15.6 Fire resist

    1 Fire arrow at 120:
    [​IMG]
    Fire arrow debuff can stack 3 times. So, -6.3x3 = -18.9 Fire resist

    1 Flame Fist at 120:
    [​IMG]
    Flame Fist debuff can stack 3 times. So, -6.3x3 = -18.9 Fire resist

    Then, if you're thrifty, you might use Evaporate, which is a combo:
    [​IMG]
    Hey! I get -45 Fire resist from this one! Woo!

    Alright, let's add it all up now!!!!

    -15.6
    -18.9
    -18.9
    -45
    ---------
    -98.4

    This is all I can get? Really? How is that possible?

    So, if someone has 338 resist to fire and I can take away 98.4 (best case scenario) then they are still left with around 239.6 Fire resist.

    Ok, that seems reasonable right?

    89-149 Ring of fire is 100% negated UNLESS I crit, right?! If I crit on the high end, we're being optimistic here. I will crit for 298 damage. Alright, PHEW! I got some damage through.

    298-239.6 = 58.4

    So, if I use ALL of my might and get lucky with a high end crit, I can do 58.4 damage to this person.

    Let that sink in. 58.4, with my highest damage spell, assuming all 8 of my debuffs are in place, and assuming that I get the best possible crit imaginable. All of the damage from all of the other fire spells wouldn't even come close to scratching this resistance.

    People will be able to swim in lava and face tank dragon fire balls for an eternity.

    Perhaps specializations should give a bit more benefit on overcoming resistance and perhaps warding is a bit too strong.

    0.25 per level is far more reasonable for the warding skills than 1 per level.
     
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  2. Brass Knuckles

    Brass Knuckles Avatar

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    I agree with you the other issue is the physical vrs magic balance. So much magic resist for those wanting and item gemming for additional warding, where is the equivalent for physical warding and gemming as a mage I wear cloth sure there are magic shields but I know melee and archer type guys who use those same shields. And they get magic resist warding.
     
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  3. jiirc

    jiirc Avatar

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    For fire resistances there are 8 different variables that come into play to determine the target resist and attunement.

    Magic Warding gives you a net 25 resist not 100 (100 / 4).

    Fire Warding gives you 100 resist.

    Fire attunement is - 50. (Each point of fire warding decreases attunement so if the person doesn’t have any points in fire, the total fire attunement for the target would be -100. The resistance is then -100 / 2.)

    The net from these 3 would be 75 and not 225.

    If the target has magic warding as well then the resist cacluati9n would be further changed as follows.

    Tactics magic attunement to all trees decreases attunement by -100 as well. So that is another -50 (assuming it is should be -100 / 4 assuming the same calculation as skill tree attunement. So that would another -50 resist.

    Gem warding would be 50 (according to your calculation since I don’t have gem warding i’ll Assume that is correct.)



    Fire attunement: -50
    Fire Warding: 100
    Magic Attunement: -75
    Magic warding: 100
    Potion: 20
    Gem warding: 50
    Fire Proof: 25
    Douse: 20
    I can’t account for ice shield as I have no knowledge which of these variables it would affect and when it would be calculated.


    Total resistance: 190

    Given the damage multiplier calculation and the attunement mementos you’ve shown 240) you have a net of 50 used in the damage multiplier calculation. So the damage multiplier used in other calculations is Power (50 + 110 / 110, .667) which is 1.23.

    I,m not sure how the fire resistance debuff get applied. But assuming that they get applied into the target resistance and attunement calculation, the total resistance in your example would be 190-98( using simple, numbers) so a net now of 92 resistance. The damage multiplier now becomes Pow (240 - 92 + 110 / 110, .667) which is 1,77.

    That damage multiplier is used in determining the resulting damage.

    As to the actual damage I can’t speak to that since indon’t Know all the variables. You are however making an assumption, in my mind anyways unless you know for certain, that the numbers shown in the tooltip are accurate and complete. For example, do those numbers take into account things like the int contribution to magic damage. I suspect there are other things that may or may not be included in the tooltip numbers. I don’t know for certain.

    Also it looks like you are saying that resist is subtracted from the damage dealt which isn’t the case. Resist is used to calculate a damage multiplier not a decrease in damage.
     
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  4. Barugon

    Barugon Avatar

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    I'm seeing lots of bad information here. Each level of warding gives you 1 point of resist and -1 attunement, which is equivelent to -0.5 resist. If you have 100 fire warding and no skills trained in the fire tree then you will have 100 resist from warding and -50 resist from the -100 attunement for a total of 50 resist. If you train enough fire skills for 100 attunement and also train fire warding then you will have 100 resist and 0 attunement. Add to that +25 resist for fire proof for a total of 125 resist. Now, if you also get 100 magic resist from the tactics tree then you will have 175 resist and -50 attunement.

    This is still really significant and I believe that PvP mages are ultimately going to die off.
     
  5. jiirc

    jiirc Avatar

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    In my calculations I purposely made the decision not to have any fire skills. You are right if you raise your fire skills, the attunement penalty changes. Even compensating for that change the net resistance would be either 100 or 142 (with all the extra resistances which I believe come from rfire specialization). The damage multiplier would be Pow ((100 + 110 / 110, .667) or Pow (142 + 110 / 110) or 1.53 and 1.747 respectively.

    As I was writin this up just now, I realized that I was using a pve damage calculation. While Pvp is similar the numbers (including these) would be slightly different. I believe the only difference is the power value (.667 (pve) versus 1 (pvp)).


    Based on the old system (no warding), the fire resistance could be
    Fire attunement: 50 (target has 100 fire attunement for resists)
    Potion: 20
    Gem warding: 50
    Fire Proof: 25
    Douse: 20

    Net resistance: 195 (and if we factor in 98 for the fire specialization the resistance would be 97)


    As per Chris, the net from tactics's magic warding and magic attuenment is a net 25 not 50. How I'm not sure, but that's meant to be the net.

    This was wrong. Chris confirmed that the net is 50. The numbers above don’t reflect the changes from 25 to 50. But the total would be 25 points higher.
     
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2019
  6. Barugon

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    The tooltip says 1 resist and -1 attunement per level.
     
  7. Hemswal The Descended

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    How is -1 resist and -1 attunement = to .5 resist?
     
  8. Barugon

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    That's +1 resist and -1 attunement. Each point of attunement is worth half a point of resist, so -1 attunement is -0.5 resist.
     
  9. Gia2

    Gia2 Bug Hunter

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    /stats will blow your mind folks.
    PvP wise they are not OP imho
     
  10. rebbieforever

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    Magic warding also gives -1 attunument to all - apart it will make ALL your spells less effective, even on the magic you want, I am sure it will make skills like douse to fizzle more often. Which is harder assuming -1 to all could probably only appeal someone roleplaying a medieval knight without magic so....plate armor in addition making the fizzles more common
     
  11. Hemswal The Descended

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    Ok, if you're correct, I'm off by 100 resist between Fire Warding and Magic Warding. That's still too much in every scenario, for every mage in PvP.

    I'm not against warding, at all. I'm against imbalance.
     
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  12. Barugon

    Barugon Avatar

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    I agree.
    When @Chris was originally talking about this like a year ago, the plan was to offer 0.5 resist per level of warding and use the higher of warding or attunement. I wish he had stuck to that plan.
     
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  13. jiirc

    jiirc Avatar

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    Hehe I added some news to the wrong thread. I asked Chris today about the net for tactics magic warding and tactics magic attunement.

    So the net is not +25. That was Chris’s thought for a while. But in the end he went with a calculation that is similar to magic attunement and resist. So tactics magic warding gives 100 resistance at gm. And tactics magic attunement gives -100, and like normal attunement gives a -100 / 2 resistance. So the net would be 50, just like the magic skill tree contribution.
     
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  14. Barugon

    Barugon Avatar

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    @Hemswal The Descended
    I heard @Chris talking about your question on his stream earlier today but it sounded like he wasn't understanding the problem.
     
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  15. Mac2

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    Ok, did some testing of fire skills on sara and let him hit me with and without death shield on. Was taking pics with print screen cuz I suck with computers. so I dont have the pics and I got to get to bed now and cant redo them. I can just give you some numbers for now. So ring of fire on sara without fire warding gear, just his warding skills and fire skills. It was dealing about 70-80 average damage. without the warding skills hes got about the same fire attunement for resistances as my alt so I did the test vs my alt who has no warding skills and I was hitting for 110-125 average. We then had sara put on all his fire warding gear and an ele res 25 pot and was hitting about 20-30.

    Now the death shield test. without death shield sara got a max crit hit for 811 1x thrust and on average with crits about 400-500, non crits like 200-300. Then with death shield 140 skill level and 5 stacked for 40% death transfer. Max crit hit was 534, and then I healed a decent portion of that back ( cant remember the number) Average crit was about 200-300, non crits like 100-200.
     
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  16. Barugon

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    Does it do anything for PvE though?
     
  17. Mac2

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    That I do not know. I dont have any warding skills so I got no data on that.
     
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  18. Hemswal The Descended

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    If a warding skill gives -1 resist and -1 attunement, does that actually equal .5 resist? My memory is foggy, but I seem to remember @Chris say that the negative attunement would have no impact on the actual resistance.

    Need clarification.

    @Mac2 Next time I see you online, let's do some more testing for this if you're up for it. I just don't want this to end up creating a bunch of people that are immune to dragon fire, lava, and fire mages floating around. It's less of a concern for other warding situations because fire already had a lot of options for resistance previous to the warding.
     
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  19. Mac2

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    I gotta get some pics anyways seeings how I messed up trying to get the pics for all the data.
     
  20. jiirc

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    Warding gives a +1 to resistance and -1 to attunement. This means your attacks would be less powerful because of attunement in the magic tree. However, when resistance is calculated it takes 50% of your attunement for resistance. At gm that would be -100 for attunement and 100 for resistance. But the calculation uses -100/ 2 for attunement’s contribution and + 100 for the resistance’s contribution. So the net between those is 50 points of resistance or .5 for every point of resistance.

    From what Chris said yesterday in his stream, negative attunement is being used in the calculation, which sort of surprised him.

    For pve, the way I understand it is that int of the mob is important. Int is what gets turned into source attunement and a high int is likely to make a big difference for magic damage.

    For the dragon’s i remember Chris mentioning that it’s damage type is more physical than magical, but I don’t remember if he was taking about a specific dragon or not.
     
    Last edited: Jun 5, 2019
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