What's the point of enemies?

Now that we have begun questioning what the point of features in the game is, I raise the question "What's the point of enemies in SotA?"

I was wandering around in Highvale, seeing the bandits, elves and animals and I asked myself: What are they doing there?

The enemies walk around in circles, waiting for the hero to attack them. They are walking their circles no matter the time of day or the weather. They don't need sleep, they don't need food, they don't talk to each other, they don't walk to their tents. They don't sit down at a campfire... Their only purpose is to wait to get killed. This is so obvious in SotA when you just watch them. And the whole "simulation of a world aspect" is suffering from this. When I realize that the enemies are just there to wait to get killed then there is no simulation to the world anymore.

Enemies in MMORPGs are meant to behave this way. In MMORPGs enemies are waiting to get killed so that the hero gets EXP and items. They respawn and behave exactly the same so that the next hero can kill them and get EXP and items. Also they are expected to always be in the same spot so that they can be found and killed easily.

But what about the single player aspect of SotA? In a single player RPG there is much more to enemies. Some can be talked to, they can be bribed or persuaded to not attack. They even do more things. They sit around a campfire in the evening or go to sleep. They talk to each other, use shovels to dig holes, they rummage through broken carts... Animals go to caves to sleep... This gives the impression that those enemies are in this region for a reason. And this reason seems to be something else than waiting to get killed by the player. Of course the true reason they are in the game is to engage the player (either in combat or dialogue) but it is not obvious due to the schedules they follow.

So, will enemies get schedules too? Will we be able to talk to enemies instead of always kill them? Will enemies get real reasons to be in the areas they are in?

 

Excellent points. I'm guessing the answer for complicated schedules will be "not in scope for episode 1"?

Nonetheless, that's exactly what i want from SotA, and not just in the single player aspect. We should get that too in the Multiplayer modes, enemies with a raison d'être and not just walking xp piñatas. As Darkmoon points out, enemies in an MMO are expected to be exactly that, because we all are entitled to progress, and that's why we have what we have now; zones overcrowded with enemies. That's the first barrier for "believable" enemies for me, because even if all of them had different IAs programmed to behave as real persons, there shouldn't be elves at one side, undead at the other, wolves at my back, and spiders in front of me (and bears behind the spiders, mind you).

In my opinion, the first step we should take towards a more organic environment is to reduce the amount of stationary enemies in a zone; that way the scenes are also more believable, and you can have bandits at the bandit camp, and patrols of bandits that gets out of the camp (reducing the number of bandits there) walking over the road towards the scene exit, and other patrols that come in from the overworld into the scene and march towards the camp, sit around the fire and rest. Same line of thought for the rest of enemies.

Then what happens if i want an endless stream of xp to power up my character? the answer lies in roving monsters and play mode. Why do we need every scene to be overcrowded when we can do that in one? Once roving monsters are in and loading screens are next to non-existent (at least in roving monsters - random encounter scenario they should be), players can hunt in the overworld map, killing patrol after patrol, in the same way it worked in Ultima IV. Are other players bothering you? that's why we have Single Player Online and Friends Onlne. That way we can have organic scenes and endless stream of XP.

Once again, I don't think we'll get schedules in enemies for episode one, but that's not an excuse to leave things the way they are. Dynamic respawn is a small step (but a step after all) in that direction, and having scenes depopulated and dynamic respawn implemented once roving monsters are in is a must to keep developing that aspect of the game in further episodes.

 

~Chat Bots?~
I'm all for the AI's being much more sophisticated right now in our cities and even POTs, yet in the field, to me is a really useless thing unless they link to a quest. Our game is mainly about a storyline with a karma attachment. Monster hunting is a secondary thing and should be enough for casual or industrial hunting.

~Random Encounters~
Our game is proceeding to the main goals of our game and that makes me happy, yet I do sympathize with a want for it to be as the OP points out. It's to this that I believe that "random encounters" are the vehicle to get the online game to be a more compelling interaction hunting game. We can do allot with random encounters, yet even then, if we memorize every encounter's events and outcomes, we are back to a repetitive thing that leaves us wanting for more.

~The Need of at least One Open Range~
Such a place, or places could fill this desire we have for a randomly mixed hunting ground.

~The Numbers of Players Should Equal Monsters~
There's not enough spawn when a few people show up in the same instance... (but I am far from having gone everywhere to justify that statement).

~AI Buff All the Towns~
I want to get married to an NPC and have personal NPC friends, even in the online game.

I'm sure no computer whiz and I'm certainly no authority on our game, so I can't really comment on how much any of these wants and desires can become a reality.
I do know that we are still far from our game's end result...
~Time Lord~

 

uhhh...this point is as old as MMO's. Garriot promissed some stuff, but he never promissed to reinvent the wheel.

 

But that is exactly a big problem of this game. Is it an MMO? What about the single player modes? Do they have to have MMO-like enemies? If so, will this lead to a true single player experience?

To quote from the Kickstarter:
"Our primary objectives are to tell a story even more compelling than Ultimas IV-VII, create a virtual world more interactive than Ultima VII, develop deep rich multi-player capabilities beyond combat akin to Ultima Online"

So we have two points:
1. "create a virtual world more interactive than Ultima VII" - A virtual world implies that even enemies do have more to do than waiting to be killed, especially if Ultima 7 is mentioned.
2. "develop deep rich multi-player capabilities beyond combat akin to Ultima Online" - Yet combat somehow is one of the main points of this game...

You see the problem here? Two worlds are crashing. The MMO and the single player game.
There are fundamental differences between the two which become more and more clear.
Quests - Many MMO fans here say the quests are too complicated, even if they just revolve around getting a key from a corpse. But the quests are not nearly complex enough for a good single player experience.
Enemies - MMO-enemies wait at certain spots to be killed. In single player RPGs they are much more active, do things, have a purpose...

So what is SotA? A MMO or a single player game? And I am not asking what the devs or we want it to be. The features define what it will be. So will the features make SotA a typical MMO with MMO-like enemies and MMO-like quests or more of a single player RPG with single player like complex quests and enemies that have a purpose besides being killed?

 

~Richard Has Always Been Full of Surprises~

That kind of looks like a new Ultima wheel to me...
Garriott's a Mother of Invention!
~Time Lord~

 

To what it leads is no issue. What was sold from day one is an issue, what was advertised. This is not a tripple A next gen game...this is old school, back to the roots. And yes, some roots are pretty messy when you look into them. Capes...same issues we had in 1998 DarcAgeOfCamelot, mobs (as you noticed) standing around like in 1996 Everquest. Thats 20 years back...look around you, ElderScroll, BlackDesert...there are titels out there for everyone to play...SotA doesnt want or need to compete with those...the money is made during development by founders...and what $ comes in after release, is pure gain.

But...one thing I keep repeating -> the cool players are here. Every multiplayer game is made up by the community that plays it...and there are no better peers to play with than the old school Ultima players.

So...the experience is not up to date...I agree...look at the used engine and you'd understand. But thats how it was explained and sold if I am correct. Am I???

 

Even in the old Ultimas mobs behaved more naturally.
SotA might not be a AAA game and I don't expect Unreal Engine 4 graphics or cinematic sequences like in The Witcher 3. But I think even a game with low budget can have exciting, complex quests full of surprises and twists. I don't see the budget as a problem here - to be honest, I see the community as a problem. I think the issue is how to create quests that are exciting for fans of complex single player games as well as MMO-players who just want straightforward grinding quests, without having to read or think much. I don't have a solution to this but what I see is a development that clearly goes into the direction of MMO-quests. It seems that the community drives the quests into a direction that brings us very simple quests.
As for monster behaviour, even in Ultima 7 or Ultima 8 I got the Impression that monsters did have a much more natural behaviour and a purpose. If I remember correctly, some enemies even went to sleep at night. So I hoped that SotA might at least have enemies that behave like those from a 24 years old game.

 

For the specific case in High Vale, these elves were sent by their superior to hold the area. You should be able to get some more details by reading on the notes placed on a table inside one of the tents near the entrance if I remember it correctly.

 

Ok, but that still doesn't justify for them to hang around the same spots 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, 365 days a year The guards should have shifts. After a shift has ended new guards take the post while the others sit down around the campfire in their camp, eat something, talk and go to sleep. Some go on a patrol, some others leave the area while new ones arrive...
Maybe some even leave the camp at night to do secret things and we can surprise them and maybe even talk to them, convince them to let us go or help us...
You know what I mean?
Right now the enemies are standing around (maybe they walk a few steps) 24 hours and wait to be killed by the players - or other enemies tha happen to walk into their aggro radius.

 

We already have a solution. Portalarium has allowed us to purchase our own scenes (POTs), and we are free to decorate these scenes however we wish (within game limitations). There is nothing to prevent players from creating their own quests and/or interactive fan fiction (I call these Scene Stories) within these scenes. With thousands of players expected post launch, I have no doubt there will be many people with the talent and desire to do this. If you want specific examples of what I am talking about, check out these two that are currently in game:

https://www.shroudoftheavatar.com/forum/index.php?threads/story-in-scene-the-palace-gardener.45844/
https://www.shroudoftheavatar.com/forum/index.php?threads/story-in-scene-the-prison.45944/

 

Uhm...a simple digital letter laying on a digital table isnt the solution to OP's point.

But where to start...those bandits all look the same, somewhere there must be the uber-bandit-mom having a hundred twins. The elves all look the same to.



Can we maybe do it like that? Just write down the XP...cause we all know what going to happen. And even if I die due to my connection being cut off...I'll be back in 5 minutes, so...dear NPC, just lie down and gime your XP. Ok?

 

Specially his scenes...believe me...Womby put hours and days into it and you need to check those out!

 

I see what you mean now. Yes, it would feel more organic if these mobs perform those actions. As of now, they can do some patrols and hopefully sleeping as normal NPCs will have it by tomorrow. I'm sure they will add some more activities that you mentioned as the development continues. Since they already added some animals playing with one another or hunt their preys in pack, I don't see why they wouldn't add the guards abilities to sit down, take a rest, or converse with their comrades on the campfire.

Bottom line, I think it's coming (hopefully) soon.

 

Seriously though, I do agree with Darkmoon. Granted, most MMO-type games have static mob spawns around the place, but I would definitely love for future releases to see more dynamic scenarios based on the actions of the players. Killed a bunch of baddies in the area? We see guards and other "safe" spots for a period of time pop up. Out murdering the guards on an afternoon? We see a bunch of brigands appear to start hassling travelers. Went and poked some dragons in their nearby cavern? Suddenly the forest is on fire from a ticked off lizard

Random encounters, enemies that remember you, etc. Couple of my favorite games have some great examples of this; Shadows of Mordor where you could fight (repeatedly) mobs that would become your nemesis and get more powerful each time you faced them, and just recently playing AC: Syndicate, where as you run around to beat up the local gangs, their leader would eventually get ticked off and come after you directly. Be cool if we could spawn rares and other random enemies by messing with their territories

 

~Hurrying Up and Waiting~
I actually believe this is a real setting with proper actions... (sad but true)... In the Cold War, we sat around and patrolled everywhere with nothing to do... "but be cold!" Good weather, bad weather, but always living in the weather. No barracks, C-Rations and in some defensive positions that hadn't been dug for lack of interest ... Sure sometimes every now and again the North Koreans shot at us and we shot at them, but the most productive part of the battle was that we got to finally warm our hands on the gun barrels... and that's if we got lucky enough to have a chance to shoot'em. Old worn out weapons that belonged in museums with warped barrels because they did get rusty and the only thing to talk about was how many times we had to walk the same trails or sit in the guard posts year after year in 57 below zero tempters or so hot it felt like we were 3 feet away from the Sun...

Does this picture remind you of any elf patrols we know of seen around here?

100% I'm just say'in, keep it real hu?...
I do want more AI though
~Time Lord~

 

Enemies in most MMOs are just a resource you harvest with a sword.

Reality is though, it's very difficult to make gameplay that isn't some kind of combat or contest interesting for a long time, so games tend to default to giving you things to fight just so you have something to do.

 

But what about the single player mode of SotA? What are enemies there? In single player RPGs enemies and their purpose in the game are different than in an MMO...

Is SotA more an MMO in regards to how enemies are presented - even in single player (offline)? If so, why?

 

??? Its the same world. Its whatever experience you want to have...its freedom. You can explore the very same world online or offline. Choice is yours. It doesnt make it 2 games.

 

Yes but isn't that the problem? If enemies in the single player offline game behave exactly like they do in the MMO part, will the offline game be a true single player experience?
If I play SotA in offline mode I do expect the game to give me a true single player offline experience. I don't want to play an offline MMO. Let's take Skyrim and WoW. Those games play very differently due to one being a single player RPG and the other a MMORPG. Would WoW be a true single player RPG if you would play it offline? In offline mode I expect things to work differently, I expect to get an experience like Skyrim does - a true single player experience. Enemies standing around in the same spot for 24 hours doing nothing but walking a few steps is a MMO behaviour. So why should they behave the same way in the offline game? If they behave like MMO-enemies then the offline game doesn't offer a true single player offline experience.