Why do levels still matter so much?

There are a few people making all kinds of comments that we have some kind of Utopian balance in pvp.

Here's one example: https://www.shroudoftheavatar.com/forum/index.php?threads/themo-end-of-release-feedback.43638/

This goes back to the idea that we need counters to everything. And we need counters to counters for everything.

I don't need to be level 90 to understand this. I don't even need to pvp to understand this. It's just the way the world works. If someone has a skill or a spell that can't be countered by anything but DPS then all you have to do is spam that and you win assuming you have a high enough DPS. That's one of the core problems with the design of this combat system, and I've been saying this since the combat system was first announced years ago.

I don't think a level 50 guy should compete with a level 92 guy either. But that's only half the story. Why is one guy level 92 and one guy level 50? Where does the level 50 guy go to pvp where he CAN compete? Why are we promoting a system where you have to reach these high levels before you can compete in pvp? And why is it so hard for some people to reach the higher levels? Why is not fun to reach the higher levels? Why does killing a bunch of AI make you good at PVP?

These are all questions that simply don't make any sense to me, and the result is what we have here. A low pvp population where a few people that are higher level dominate at the expense of anyone that hasn't reached a certain level. That's not good.

Yes, I agree with that.

 

Of course I also agree with this, however I find it interesting that it's ok to kill for power if you're there doing it, but it's not ok to kill stuff if you're not there doing it. So as long as someone is bored out of their mind, and grinding away then it's ok. But if they macro that, now we have a problem?

The core path to power shouldn't be kill 1 million zombies and your character is now a god. There's a fundamental disconnect here between what should make someone powerful and what shouldn't.

 

yes Drocis, i tested the system in depth with a large and diverse team and provided accurate feedback (as opposed to guesswork and wild speculation).

 

Agreed. Everyone should have a good population to be competitive with.
IMO this is a population thing. Its pre-alpha, right now ALL you have is the hardcore player really.

 

Yes, the overall low population contributes greatly.

However, there are other factors involved. One of which is certainly that grinding is not fun. I'm sure if Chris takes the time to check, he'll see that a large portion of people stop playing after the 4x modifier goes away.

I also think that the mechanic that allows people to attack anyone flagged for pvp on a whim is keeping people from being flagged for people. I know there are a few people that are super high level that are always flagged for pvp, but that's besides the point.

 

I did not address pvp as I don't have the experience with it or information about the mechanics it uses.
I'm going to leave that part of the discussion to those more qualified to address it.

This is my biggest concern. I specifically built a dex stat suit in chain (post 24), trained the dex passive, and trained a weapon proficiency to gain hit chance, but I feel like the progress I made was not notable.

Similarly, I GMed mining swiftness before I even got mining proficiency to 80 - and honestly, I feel like getting my mining proficiency to GM was a total waste of xp considering how little of a difference it made.

You'll notice that mining swiftness and strength aren't completely undermined by levels, it is specifically targeting some skills that are superseded.

Is it really the only way to implement this? Make high end mobs have high stats etc.. (and without exploits who is actually going to be able kill them with low stats and skills?)

I feel like having a hidden "level" system dictate where you can go is very against the spirit of a sandbox game.

 

Yep. Basically. They are AFK Macro-ing.
I'm out there grinding away my pool, on bears or wolves or whatever. Actually putting in the hours, making my bones, so to speak.

 

I hate scripting and macroing too. For the same reasons.

But we can't just assume that "grinding is fun". The whole reason people macro and script is because it's NOT FUN. I would much rather address that issue over anything else.

I have a limited amount of time to grind, but it will never be anything close to other people in the community. That is why I've proposed that we just cap the amount of leveling someone can do in a day to a set number. This would also cap people that macro. It would even the odds for the community as a whole, even though it would make powergamers cry. The people that were disciplined and showed up religiously every day to get their grinding done would still marginally surpass people that did not. So there would still be a week to week advantage, just not the god like (I can play 60 hours a week on a video game so now I'm good at pvp).

 

The macro'ing was always going to be an issue with a use based system, that was the entire reason behind a hybrid system. It still doesn't stop it but it makes it harder to macro your way to the top end.

 

I totally agree that macroing was an inevitable issue. However, how does the leveling system really change much? You can create mob difficulties without relying on levels as the biggest mechanic, and you can build xp for macroing without killing high level mobs.

And at the end of the day anyone macroing has that xp pool... Which is the only thing that drives adventurer level anyway.

 

Yes it really does change it considerably. Leveling and progress is also a huge draw card for this genre of gaming, it is something most people want and expect in one form or another. Right now progression takes about a tenth of the effort that i would like to see, but it is also ten times the effort somebody like Drocis wants. I would also like to see mob difficulty at least doubled, but others would like to see it halved. Somewhere in the middle is likely what we will see on launch.

 

Time-to-kill is a big deal/make-or-break feature in resource acquisition games like SotA. Once time to kill exceeds about 30 seconds, player complaints are constant. Now, of course, you can just put up with the complaints, but it's more noise in the signal, so not really desired. Keeping it somewhere in the 15-25 second range is the sweet spot.
OR
You slow down combat, but end up increasing resource granted per kill, which has vastly greater implications when players eventually do 'game the system' and are able to kill faster. So, it's better to give out smaller Skinner Box rewards more frequently than larger rewards more infrequently, as a result. (in my experience)

 

Not speaking at all towards macros as I really don't care about other people's progression. I play to enjoy my time, not compete with others, and don't personally macro because that's dull and boring.

I am interested in the way the game uses levels to cap player advancement in a fake skill use system. I'm not seeing why leveling being such a huge factor for being restricted from hitting mobs is at all helpful. If I'm a GM in a spell or weapon I should be able to hit anything with that spell or weapon. Unfortunately, the current design makes it so that if my adv lvl isn't in the zone I will miss attacks 100% of the time. I am not seeing at all why we have an adv lvl. Progress and leveling is handled by watching your skills go up and attain the phantom GM zones. Having a behind the scenes adv lvl dictate my success makes no sense to me. We have a skill use system, let the SKILLS dictate whether or not we hit something or successfully dodge. You can add in the STR, DEX, and INT passives to further improve your chance, but it shouldn't be solely dictated on the adv lvl as that means some one like Themo who has never touched a skill (I hope there is something you haven't touched) can still be more successful with that skill than I could be if I ever hit GM due to how many adv lvls he has over me. I know this doesn't apply in PvP (or at least have read many threads where people say it doesn't), but for the PvE side it makes no sense and yet that is typically how it is applied.

As mentioned above, I know the stupid argument behind our hybrid level and macros (it doesn't really prevent it at all, but that's not the purpose of this thread) and that's NOT what I'm addressing. An intelligent player will ALWAYS outperform an AFK macro player, and AFK macro will ALWAYS happen in any multiplayer game with any type of progression system. I am purely concerned about how the current design impacts normal casual players like me. I have nothing but respect for those who push beyond my abilities and available time, but again that isn't really what the OP is focused on (or at least not how I understood it).

 

For you.

I like grinding. I'm good at it. I have crafting GM's too. I don't just grind ADV xp, I grind Producer xp too.

Also, even I don't like to just grind, that's why I go to every event I can. Or run Chillblains w/a party...I'll almost always leave my grind to do something else...see some folks, have some laughs, whatever!!

So any suggestions towards level caps, skill caps or xp caps (24hr caps) I'll always disagree with. I'm putting in my time (as well as money) too, I don't want penalties for people who play like me, legitimately.

Levels (or time played really) matter. They always will. I don't have a fix suggestion for this.

I don't know how to level a playing field for someone who plays 6hrs a week, to my 17783hrs a week.

 

Absolutely. I'm tried to qualify this in most of my posts to say (for me). But obviously it's not "just me". I'm not alone here in this regard.

I see mobile games do it all the time. You simply can't play forever 24/7. They limit how many times you can play, typically unless you pay them.

I'm not suggesting we do that here. But I am saying that the idea of leveling for extreme hours isn't healthy for the game (at launch). Go find something else to do (in-game). Honestly, if we can't support other activities that people can do in their non-grinding time, then we have bigger problems than what we're talking about here. Some people (like me) are just plain going to be bored.

I fall asleep at the keyboard after a few hours of straight grinding. I don't see why we can't stop leveling after a reasonable amount of time. Take a break, try roleplaying or socializing. Go decorate your house. Help other players. PVP. But don't put 1000's of hours into grinding.

 

My house is deco'd too. and we've designed PvP arenas, and helped Deco my town...and got to lvl 87.


I only had 4x until lvl 38, if that's any consolation.(first release I've gotten stuck into since r13-ish)

 

Let me put it another way.

I'll be the first to concede that people are better at me in PVE. I don't like it, it's not fun for me, and I only care about it because it's a means to an end. If I could PVP as much as you like PVE, I'd probably be in-game a lot more.

 

As Fezzik said (paraphrasing...), we should fight as god intended, skill on skill alone.

This really means something to me. Unless buffed or magically imbued we all still have relatively the same mortality level. A knife to the unprotected jugular should kill, not just subtract 4 hp from the 1000 hp pool.
What sets the grinder apart without levels is that they have more and higher skills. Hey, it is not Themo's fault that he is the biggest and the strongest, but he should be able to fall with good tactics, some luck, and maybe a friend or two to help. But adv level is just plain wrong.

 

Themo Lock may be the best PVPer that's ever lived. We'll never know if the playing field is not balanced. He and others are certainly a lot better at killing mobs than I am.

 

I totally understand!!

I enoy PvE, just gonna run missions for the first few hours of the next new wipe w/friends to get to lvl 25ish and get some gold. I like every aspect of the game, so I try to incorporate them all. Make no mistake though, PvE is a means to an end for me too.
I am PvP through and through. That's why I enjoy our back and forth!!