[Feedback] Crafting

UO crafting = very fun. SWG crafting = extremely fun. SoTA crafting = hopefully soon going through a major redux.

 

There are some example recipes in the Release 2 instructions. There definitively is not enough in game instruction for crafting. That will be fix for Release 3.

 

It's a "ruler" or "tape measure"...

 

I am not sure if this is a bug or not so I will ask for more info here. In the Owl's Head Crafting Pavillion, I wanted to experiment with crafting. I picked up the loom shuttle and a couple of Flax Fiber to try to make some thread. But the Craft button does not light up. I have looked at all the other tools and I am sure they wouldn't be used. Am I experiencing a bug or am I not doing/using something I need?

 

Oops, I realized I was dragging a stack and not an individual item. However, when I did manage to just put a single Flax Fiber and the Loom Shuttle on the Textiles Table, the Crafting button still did not light up.

 

I understand your frustration, I am going through it too. If you notice, the Textile table has two devices (Spinning wheel & Loom), what do you use a spinning wheel for? What do you use a loom for? The answer lies in the OPers first post is where I found it, you'll never guess what item you're missing. Maybe it's a Bug, maybe it's not, it doesn't make sents to me because I'm a 21th century person, not a 15th century person.

Keep experimenting, and reading too...

 

It's actually the fact that I have to move the objects from the table and back that I really enjoy. It's hard to really explain why I feel that way, but the simple things like getting my inventory organized just so to make it more efficient, and getting into the process of moving the log on to the sawmill, and then moving the individual components one at a time back into their respective stacks. I could be lazy and just throw them into my inventory, or I could take the time to keep the inventory clean. There's a lot of little optimizations I can do to make the process more efficient, or if I'm feeling tired or rushed I can do it the quick and dirty way and pay for it later when my inventory is cluttered. That sort of thing makes the crafting actions feel a bit more real. I mean, you can abstract it out like WoW, but while you might find that system fun, it's not really fun for me. Those sorts of abstractions mean you click a button, and your character makes 16 stacks of iron rods out of your 16 stacks of iron while you walk to the fridge and get a snack. And the only reason you want to make those 16 bars is to raise your experience so that you can start making 16 stacks of steel rods, so that you can get more experience to make the same Impervious Sword of Compensation.

It's the same sort of philosophical difference between talking to the NPCs and seeing a sea of question marks. Sure, you can abstract out the interactions to the most basic idea "Click here to recieve quest. Click here to craft item." but I'm personally hoping to find a game where I can be more a part of the world. Slowing down the process isn't just "to make us subscribe longer", but in many ways it's about being involved in the process of what you're doing rather than relying on the end goal.

The sort of changes I'd like to see personally would be more along the lines of more consistent mouse selection of the items, maybe some shadows under the items to make them easier to see against certain crafting table backgrounds, a fix to the issue where ctrl-dragging also moves the stack a bit.

My biggest complaint about the crafting system is that many of the recipes are not intuitive. Sure, a table takes more wooden rods and wood than a chair. But is a table the only thing I can make with 3 boards and 2 rods? What if I wanted to make a smaller or larger table?

If I wanted to add to the crafting system, I'd do something like allow the player to study an item that they find in the world. After studying it, they can try to create it. So you study a table, then you can try to make a table. You still have to pick the right amount of materials, and maybe you can even do it with too many materials. Maybe a table only needs 3 boards and 2 rods, but at first you just know you want to make a table, so you try different things, and the first thing that works properly is when you use 4 boards and 4 rods. But with a bit more practice and trial and error you learn that you can get it down to 3 boards and 2 rods. This would mean damaging some materials in attempts to make a table with too little materials. If you wanted to, you might be able to try to make a bigger table after studying a table, or a bedside table. Maybe you want to use metal, but you still have access to the idea of a table, so you put in 3 metal sheets and 2 wooden rods, and you get a table with a metal top and wooden legs. Still, whatever you got it would either be a failed attempt, or a table, and the more experimenting you did, the more efficient you would be. You might even be able to do some things that are a little less intuitive. Maybe 3 boards and 2 rods is an efficient standard design, but if you place a board in the right place on the crafting table, and the rods in just the right locations to the left and right of it, you can make it with 1 board and 2 rods.

 

Crafting needs some fixes to make it still authentic, but more fun. Good suggestions here.

• I think it should be fine to have extra ingredients on the table -- so long as they're the correct ingredients -- and still being able to make your item, or multiple items.
• Putting the tool on the table seems really odd. Equipping the tool would be ideal. Putting a measuring tool on the table also seems bizarre. I'd rather put only actual ingredients on the table, and *use* the tools. That would make more sense; be more practical to me.
• I don't mind experimenting, but I do like the idea of the recipe lighting up for you in your book, if you have the ingredients, and have learned the recipe previously. Then at the correct table, if you could interact with the recipe book by clicking 'craft' from there.
• Some suggested breaking down an item to get the recipe/ingredients for it. That doesn't make sense to me, thinking about a chair, for example, as it wouldn't turn back into a log, or a full-sized board, etc.,...and I don't want the recipes being that easy to get.
• It would be fine -- and good -- to put an item on a table and be able to break it down, or have it destroyed, giving you some kind of scraps, that you could then do something with some of the scraps for a new crafting project.

Thanks Official Dev Team for working so hard on crafting! I know that it has entailed a lot of research and thought, and that is appreciated very much! Unique crafting is very nice! I know this is pre-alpha, and I look forward to more ease and fun with the crafting, and less awkwardness or tediousness.

 

I totally agree with this, crafting is too much work. I understand "experimenting", but after you learn the recipe why not put your ingredients on the table and choose your recipe, and boom it makes all you can.

Pulling things from a stack needs to be simple, shift & click, then type. I really hated having to backspace to delete the count that was there to enter a new count.

I remember the old ultima's and going to a smith shop in Minoc to ask the smith about some info on how to make things or to read in a book at his home or in the library to learn how to do something, experimenting is fine, but there should be multiple ways to get the knowledge. Crafting can be questing for knowledge, hearing a rumor from some barkeep about a retired smith in the hills someplace east of here or stumbling on some ruins and finding an old musty book.

Deconstructing is a good idea, but it should take some skill to do that. I think we should go to our grass roots and just be adventurous, and go from place to place seeking the knowledge from GM crafters, and read the books they left behind. Weather that be a Player, NPC or traveling sales man or just a wrecked monistary in the hills someplace.

I understand the crafting system is raw at this stage, but I don't see a smith shop anywhere or a tailoring shop either. Experimenting is fine, but I can only imagine how complex it will become once all the ingredients are available. How many combinations will there be possible? It seems like too much work, and growing into another "Lottery" system or a system where you just "accidentally" drop an odd amount on your table and stumble on a new recipe.

Is that really fun? Not... When a crafter gets frustrated, where can they go in-game to get help? Will the "Oracle" have answers?

 

It seems like a common agreement on here is the tedious nature of dragging items individually. I couldn't agree more with this argument. Especially from an immersion standpoint, you would never do this in real life (well, unless you were playing Scrabble).

Here's a real-life example for this argument: I do quite a bit of woodworking in my spare time, and recently built a few stools. I wasn't working from any plan, and was just sort of winging it (experimenting, if you will). I knew roughly how many dowels I would need per stool, but figured I'd cut extra just in case. Now, what I didn't do was grab an individual wooden rod, cut it, drop it in a bag, and proceed to the next rod. I grabbed a HANDFUL of rods, stacked them up, and cut about 30 dowels in a matter of seconds. When it came time to assemble the stools, I didn't grab the dowels one at a time, I grabbed a HANDFUL, plopped them down on my workbench, and proceeded to pull from the pile as necessary. And guess what, I had leftovers, and that was just fine. I took them off the workbench and stored them for future projects.

Even a novice woodworker, like myself, knows little things like this streamline production time. The current crafting system feels more like Blue's Clues than it does actually building something with a purpose.

 

I played around with the crafting and felt like playing a pre-alpha of 1997 UO and not a game of current time.
Immersion is important, but as it is now it's more like for "masochist" player.
I will now repeat some statements here, but that way the dev will better know whats bothering.

Overall
In overall the concept itself sounds promising. Experimenting is a more interesting way for crafting and will make the crafting “skillset” more meaningful. The creating process itself is in the other hand meaningless and just time consuming. Always get the right amount of resources grab from inventory, move it to the table, wait until it recognize you did it right, hit craft button and suddenly the item appears, move the items in the inventory and start over with the new/next item…
What I’m missing here: How can I influence the crafting process? How can I differ my work from others or npc merchant? Except some recipe (which will be easily available on the web)?

Interactive Concept
I’m aware my idea is maybe too late during the current development process, but I will still suggest it. During the crafting I would suggest 2 modes. Default = Just hit crafting , Mastering = Interactive Mode
During the process you will see a sketch of the item (or a generic drawing) which will show some “mistakes” or “flaws” which happening during the crafting. You have to hit these “points” to fix them. Higher Crafting skill means: You see make less flaws and/or you see more flaws to fix. It could also be possible to decide how to fix it (use more resource, try to fix with current amount of resources, etc)



Now it could be follow possibility: Not fixing all flaws will make the crafting not successful (maybe even with loss of some resources?) or it will be only as good as merchant items. Fixing all flaws will increase the chance of quality and therefore maybe even give some extra attributes (at the highest crafting level = Legendary and maybe possibility of give the item a name).

Quality
Quality in overall is also a topic. I loved the way how UO or DAoC handled the topic. If you invest more time (okay in DAoC it was more a question of luck), you’ve got better quality and therefore a better item. I’m missing it here.
I don’t want an “everybody can craft”-Crafting. I’d like to have a crafting which can be executed as own “adventure”-class (hope you get my point). Still it should be enjoyable and not feeling like a virtual work

Small topics

• Stacked Items have to get another Item-Picture and/or have a better description to get the amount
• Crafting Items should also get a sub group in list view inventory
• Possibility to craft multiple times of same item (I don’t mind if you put a timer on it or even a failure/lost rate as penalty)

Thats currently a summary of my thoughts.

 

I'd been looking forward to crafting so this release didn't disappoint with some nice stuff to get stuck into. I've mostly been using the bag menu, rather than the list one. The list is looking very nice and is a great alternative to have, but I do enjoy the tactile nature of shifting around icons in a bag. Makes them feel more like items rather than names on a list, but that's just me. I do have some thoughts on it though.

Item Quality
I put this early because a lot of the subsequent stuff addresses it. Currently there's no hallmark for quality, and that's fine. This is just a test of crafting; obviously not all functionality is there yet. This is a test of the basics. I expect that skill, tool quality, component quality, crafting bench, etc will all factor into quality.

Only thing I can comment on the release now is perhaps the addition of a 'time spent crafting' slider to tweak how long you want to spend on a particular piece. Perhaps to reflect this, a longer time spent on an item may result in a better quality product but also exponentially increases the chances of failure; reflecting the idea that you are using this time to perfect your product but have the broader chance to mess it up further than if you had just left well enough alone.
If this failure rate was exponential with greater time and partially random, it would make even endgame crafting a challenge as you cross your fingers that you have enough skill to offset the penalties and make spend 2 hours crafting the infinity+1 sword.

Drag & Drop
Despite liking the bag system, the process of individually setting out each recipe by dragging items onto the bench is incredibly tedious, particularly when you mix with stacks or similar-looking items. Took me a few minutes to realise 'Wooden Handle' and 'Wooden Pole' were two different things. There's also a small issue that you need to drag a little big when CTRL or ALT click & move for the game to realise you want to split a stack, resulting in the stack taking little jaunts around your inventory. I had my coal stack leave the bag and explore the void space between my bag and bench once due to this minute movement over many drags.

This could improved in a few ways, for example a 'take all' button on the crafting bench to quickly clear it (maybe disable tools with this or you'd have to drag it on every time), or the option to quickly transfer items directly, in stacks, to the bench/main-bag with a double-click.

Specificity
You need the exact recipe to make something. When you're making a final sword or something this isn't a big issue, but when doing something like smelting, where you have a lot of stacks, it gets pretty annoying. Having to drag individual coals and mini-stacks of iron from your main stacks can get very tedious, and often confusing when you start dealing with more complex things. This is a problem restricted by the design of the system, since some recipes differ only by the number of components (clothing, I'm lookin at you!) so leaving a big stack of 20 would leave the game confused as to what you're trying to make.

A clear way around this is if you put a stack on the bench and hit craft; if the components on the bench can form different recipes, a menu would pop up asking which recipe you're attempting. You select which item, it makes that and leaves the unused materials in their stacks. That also means much faster crafting. The problem of this is it potentially popping up a ton of recipes, or hidden ones you haven't done yet. Could be fixed respectively by good UI design, and renaming the unmade things as ???.

Recipes
Just from my opinion; I don't think discovering recipes is a good idea. The system isn't intuitive enough for experimentation to find recipes (too many components, too specific recipes) and everyone will just refer to the wiki for recipes anyway. I understand the desire to not give players access to EVERYTHING at the start, and neither should items be artificially locked off by a skill cap.

I'd suggest that common recipes may be known to everyone, or at least those who start skilled in a profession. Gives them basic smelting/weaving/carving recipes but leaves the more complex things a mystery. Doesn't solve the wiki issue though, since complex things will end up there anyway. Decision here will be whether the devs wish for players to refer to their books or alt-tab to a wiki. Neither way is wrong, in my opinion, but at the bottom of my post I have outlined an alternative.

Tools
I know this system is essentially the same as the UO one, but I feel like the tools aren't really necessary. The dynamic they form is un-perishable components in recipes, which means there is only a single concern involved with them; the initial obtaining. After that, they may as well live on the bench.

This concern is EASILY blown away if you have 'classes' of tools, like novice/adept/master/etc, which alter the quality of the item you are attempting to craft or chances of success; similar to how the Elder Scrolls did crafting in morrowind/oblivion. This makes the choice of tool a conscious one, and you'd always be on the lookout for better tools. I'd expect this would be the case in the final game, so this is a concern restricted to only the current release.


That's pretty much my critique of the current system. However, I have a big idea that I would love to tell you guys after playing with the crafting. I honestly do think this could be a big asset to the game:

The "When All You Have is a Hammer" System
Alright, this is just my thoughts when messing with the system and reading some random threads around for possible changes to the crafting system. This is a modification that I think could be worth experimenting with to see how well it works.

When you go to the bench to craft, you refer to your recipe book and click on what you desire to craft, then place down the components and tools that you possess, whereupon you click the button and attempt to craft. Depending on the components used, it could result in a wonky item (not enough materials, improper components, improper tools, etc) or a spectacular one (excess material, ideal components, ideal tools, etc).

Recipes would appear like:
"Iron Longsword"
Tool
- Hammer
Requires
- Blade
- Pommel
Variable
- Coal

- The rating of how components relate to a recipe could be designed with a simple numerical multiplier to the crafting chance of success. The ideal item rated at "1x" (wooden handle); a very similar item at "0.5x" (wooden pole); and an unrelated item at "0x" or 'no chance' (wooden log). This modifier would also apply to subsequent item quality.
- However, rare components may result in better items at a higher difficulty. "Metal Bar" may require 'iron ore', but the substitution of it with 'godsend iron ore' results in a difficulty modifier of "0.5x to % success" but results in a "1.5x" quality modifier.
- When dealing with excess/lack of variable components like ore, coal or cloth, an exponential multiplier could be used.

(Pretend red is difficulty multiplier and blue is item quality multiplier)
With 'component quality' on X, 'component quantity' on Y, and the optimal quantity/quality being Y=0; a lack pushes the product multipliers into negative X, increasing difficulty and decreasing quality. An excess pushes them into positive X, decreasing difficulty and increasing quality. With an exponential function, this prevents players just using mass components to create game-breaking items, since the multipliers plateau out after a while and eventually result in negligible differences. Depth could be introduced with broadening or steepening the curve of the function to allow a greater variety of possible quality modification.
- Specific components like blades/axe heads or the like would be required for the item and cannot be crafted without them.
- Some tools may be substituted, for example a blacksmithing hammer may be substituted for a warhammer or carpentry hammer, with a penalty modifier for not-ideal tool and bonus modifier for special tools. Obviously this will need to be looked over carefully to avoid compounding the exponential multiplier for variable components, lest we get the Godslayer blade.
- Recipes may not specify the exact amount required, resulting in players experimenting with what produces the best 'quantity-to-quality' ratio; ideally a different thing for every item. Some broader than others. It may also pay to introduce very minor cosmetic alterations to common item models to reflect their quality (bad item has cracks and grit, good item is reflective and pristine).

- Damaged or poor items may also be re-crafted using this system, using just the tools and variable components in an attempt to increase quality whilst repairing. Failure results in poorer quality or outright destruction, whilst success improves and repairs the item. This means that seeking out an unskilled blacksmith for repairs may result in an item with full durability, but whose durability cap has been reduced; or perhaps the opposite and becomes a better item. This would also make weapons feel more organic as they change throughout the game as they are used, repaired, sold and reforged by any number of players. It will also make blacksmithing an on-going service that players provide one another; high level smiths may be sought out greater by people to improve their gear.

Sounds like a minor change, but it severely alters how crafting would work in the ways outlined below:
+ Game always knows what you're trying to create.
Less fiddling with dozens of similar-but-slightly-different components that would all do the job well enough (obviously the ideal component gives the highest quality and success chance).
+ Allows for dynamic recipes with variable components.
Encourages experimentation with crafting to find the optimal recipe!
+ Diminishes 'wiki-reliance' in crafting.
Since optimal recipes are dependent on any number of factors unique to the player (tool quality/durability, bench quality, item quality, etc).
+ Minor modification of recipes possible to increase or decrease quality.
Again, more experimentation! Wouldn't it be cool if you spent thousands to buy tons of optimal ore and used it all on a single weapon, and got out of it 'the Planet-Slicer'.
+ Makes adding new recipes through DLC/expansions/episodes easy.
No need to fit it into a previously vacant spot between the 2 Wood+1 Iron and 2 Wood+3 Iron recipes, just add a new recipe entry!

- Dependent on known Recipes.
The big concern is that it is restricted by known recipes, meaning no blind experimentation to find new things. Everything would have to be known.

However, even that last concern can be fixed if you give players all common, human-designed items in their books (sword/mace/hammer) and leave the complex recipes on scrolls inside ancient tombs or dungeons to be found as loot. The complex recipes could even make sense like this if they were things like a sword hilt designed on Pagan, or a warhammer head designed by Gargoyles; because then it is logical that regular people wouldn't know how to make them, and you would need to search for blueprints for how to make one.

Assuming it uses the 'repeat activity to increase skill at activity' dynamic, this approach also encourages natural repetition for another reason than grinding levels; for the desire of an optimal recipe.

Basically, I think the system I've suggested would make crafting a lot more dynamic, deep and fun since you could afford to go off the recipe and experiment with alterations. The base amount would be equal to the release as it is now, but experimenting with skill, component quantity/quality, tool quantity/quality, time spent, etc could all go towards making a ton of unique weapons to populate the world. Every sword, every boot, every chair a snowflake item.

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Whoo, thanks for reading this. I hope it gets to the devs; I really think this system could benefit the game greatly, and make all other crafting systems and MMOs look static in comparison. Richard Garriot said he wanted weapons with history; well, with weapons organically changing over time based on the skill and components used to create and repair them, they certainly will weave a rich tapestry in their code. Well, that's my idea anyway. Please consider it.

 

Really enjoyed the second taste of New Britannia and crafting. After a steep learning curve to understand how to craft on the tables (should have read the instructions properly/ would have helped if those recipes were not buried half way down) I found it both frustrating and challenging which is how it should be. There are several comments that crafting is tedious, surely at some level it is meant to be. You do not want it to be a grind but if you are building something for your home or adventuring it should not be simple. If you are doing it for profit as a commercial enterprise, it should be time consuming, involve trial and error and not be necessarily straightforward.

What really matters is that crafted items hold their own against those you can find, unlike in WoW where the skills are now basically worthless as raid items are always better.

I do think that some of the items that are used, such as the loom shuttle are just too small and fiddly, even if they are sized right but that is a personal opinion and certainly not a criticism. The whole system comes across as generally balanced and well thought out in terms of the raw materials/ reagents needed and the progress from gathering to refining is pretty clear once you work out the importance of items such as bark.

Personally I would like to see a system where you do not need to put up the tool, seems unnecessary and in the pursuit of reducing the number of repetitive clicks perhaps the item groupings could be more user friendly, ie flax fiber is needed in threes, fine but then let that be the first grouping, saves messing about with the slider.

Roll on R3!

 

I struggled at start. I was tired after my first session however went on to discover 42 recipes during first night, then after a good nights sleep I came back... and it didn't feel burdensome even at this raw stage of development. I suppose there will be some meaningful shortcuts, and some sort of hints to getting started with crafting, but I'm enjoying the general feel of this crafting system.

Looking forward to repairs, and the rest of recipes to be implemented. With the feedback from R2 and from what I've seen devs talking about in the forums already, I feel... very satisfied with the direction they're taking in crafting.

 

Stacks need a numeric count next to them. Only single items should not have a count.

When <CTRL>+<left click> and drag a counter should appear to let you select how many you desire to drop

 

I don't understand the need to hide recipes from people. As soon as they are discovered they will be posted online anyway and everyone will know them, so what are you really hiding them for in the first place?

Sent from my SGH-I337M using Tapatalk

 

After further crafting, I wanted to augment my original recommendation:

1. Having some way to select one item from stack and automatically putting on craft table (like double clicking it with mouse)
2. Like other crafting systems I played letting you make multiples of the same item would be VERY beneficial. You can still incorporate the
exact amount needed. Example. If one stool takes hammer and two boards then if you put 4 boards down you will get two stools when you hit craft.
- Not sure if the recipes need to be reworked in order to do this, but this would be highly valuable vs doing one at a time (ex: iron ingot)
3. Method to drag/place everything made into sacks/inventory list. Best way to describe this is when you take a log to the milling table. It makes 3 different items. Dragging three different items over and over
to your bag gets tedious after a while. If we could do a drag box around the entire thing and just drag it to a bag and have them just automatically stack that would be advantageous.
4. Related to #3. Not sure if it can be done, but if something is able to be stacked and you drag it to your bag it should just stack automatically instead of you have to lining it up exactly over image. Simple example- tree bark
5. Regarding deconstruction and I think this would be most beneficial, even if it gives me slightly less of the original material I would still be happy with that.
6. As far as Recipes either I will discover my self thru wiki's/forums or try it myself does not matter to me, but I do suggest to provide basic recipes as I have read on this thread.
- I am not sure if it will be, but I would like to discover rarer recipes in game thru missions and exploring also.

Thanks for reading

 

I think this game could "borrow" a bit more crafting wise from *cough* Guild Wars 2 *cough*
The crafting here felt a bit stiff and cumbersome, not fluent and friendly.
A good start though.

 

Overall I like crafting, but I agree there is some tedium. I think requiring exact numbers is the main culprit as you need to split stacks and what not. Being able to drag entire stacks over and use a slider for the amount used would help, or just consuming the number needed out of the stack. This might create a problem when something is the same recipe except the number of items, but it definitely needs something. Like Lum said we just need the developers to do more crafting themselves and this will tighten up.

The other main problem I have is the visibility of items on the table. Especially when they shift around after creation. Spools were the worst. The shimmer effect helps but its not enough for small items. Either outlining items when they are on the table (might help with bag and dark colored items too) or making them bigger when on the table would help. I had to keep plastering my face into my monitor to find stuff and that is not fun. Especially since I have a large monitor and usually sit further back.

 

Just to consolidate from the Other thread

I think I would prefer however .... (MoSCoW ratings to those of a Requirements bent: Must have, Should have, Could have, Would have)​

(S) - Click of recipe book to "load" a table, this would still allow experimentation because you could add/remove stuff, it would simple be the starting point ... Then you would click craft once you're ready
(W) -- This would ideally have different recipes for "expert" tools, especially if they wore out - as you would only use them top end, not the rough and ready you'd be for basic planks/bars etc
(S) -- Would only work if you had the appropriate table open at the time
(M) - Click to clear crafting table (don't care where the button is put, it could be 1/4 the size of the "Craft" button and be fine)
(M) - Auto loot if you wander too far to keep it open
(C) - fiddly tool size, maybe slightly bigger
(M) - needs single (shift/crtl) click to select "one" of a stack
(C) - choice select from stack could be a little more intuitive, I did it by accident and couldn't reproduce until my son helped

Notes
(M) -Assuming in Multi-player, the table is in use (and other people can't take items off it) - goes to the auto loot if you wander away / Else all tables are unique and people see own versions only (as if single player)​

​

As to the above on quality ... does an epic quality ingot makes sense?
should it be the end products? or would you need superior ingots to make a superior sword?

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