Why is making and eating food more complex than casting magic spells?

It would be really nice to see Magic and Reagents be as sophisticated as the Cooking and Nutrition system. Where it seems I'll be able to cast fireballs with the click of a button using no reagents, it seems infinitely more complex and challenging to bake an apple pie. Surely we can do better?

Btw, I essentially asked this same question for the Dev Hangout yesterday and it was moderated (hidden from view) on the main website. I can understand if it was off topic, but it wasn't. Either the cooking and nutrition system is too complex or the magic system is not complex enough, but you can't have it both ways in its current form.

 

People would throw a fit if they had to add grind black pearl into a powder, sprinkle that powder onto a lump of sulfuric ash, heat that dusted sulfuric ash with flint, steel, tinder, and coal in a brick oven, then carry the cooled "charge" withthem all the time exclusively for Fireball. Magic is meant to be a common combat mechanic. I doubt users of it will want to jump through hoops for such menial and requisite tasks.

With cooking, you create something that provides a temporary bonus to the abilities of the character that consumes it. You don't have to use an Apple Pie really ever, but maybe sometimes, if you do, it'll make a particular encounter a little easier--maybe making the difference between success and failure. Point is you don't have to eat one of those hard-to-bake Apple Pies every 0.5 seconds.

 

Right, you have a variety of choices. But you do have to eat "something" every hour or at least every 5 hours of in-game play. That's the system that RG described yesterday.

In addition, I would argue that making a combat system where you have to cast spells every .05 seconds is absurd. Why not make it so you only have to cast 1 fireball and that is so effective that it doesn't really need to be cast again unless you just like seeing the animation of fire engulfing your already fallen foes.

It's crazy to think that it's more complex to create pea soup than it is to summon a demon. It's completely ludicrous.

 

I believe cooking and crafting styles are a way of life for some and they are good for role play and immersion. They can set the price on their wares upon the time it takes to make it. The combat players can purchase these foods. Combat play styles are a way of life for many also and require instant use. If you required time to mix ingredients and reagents in combat most of the people playing combat roles would not enjoy it.

 

Actually eating the food will not be that complex. It is only for min-maxers that complexity arises. Most would just chomp down on whatever is around until full, and then fill up when the 'satisfied' Buff fades.
Where food will be a bit more complex is for those who intend to become "master"chefs - ie those who want to research recipes etc, but given the availability of WIKI etc, that will not be complex either to the casual player.
So while the underlying system might appear very complex to those who know the bits and bolts, it still behaves like in the real world where even though you know its complicated you still eat whatever you fancy regardless if its good for you or not.

Now when it comes to magic, during the alphas it seems to be the intention of casting magic being much easier than what will be in there later. This to try the balancing of different magic spells without having to spend half the alpha on finding the reagents.
But I do think magic will be easier than the food system, this since Garriot loves to grind down into deep sim when he gets the opportunity, so the bits he like will have lots of details, while fighting is mostly up to the dev team who naturally wants it to be non-complex and intuitive so as to not encumber multiplayer pvp too much.
People think the card system already is too complex, adding a magic system on top of that...

My personal opinion is two-fold, I think that basic effect magic should be easy, in fact as easy as point-and-click with only a slight need to worry about items carried or whatnot, like having minimum of one of the required reagents (to balance expendibles).
However I'd love a really complex system of bonuses to such a system. Which includes reagents-alchemy and timing.
That way the point-and-click crowd could shoot their damage dealing spell with no thought etc, but the mage with lots of experience and knowledge who have the correct reagents would get + for each reagent and quality, then + for properly prepared, then + for cast at the right time of day/month (obvious example is lunar magic which should wax and wane with the moon), then + for cast at the same time as the opponent does X. Maybe doubling the actual effect of the spell.
Of course this is not overpowered or similar since the point-and-click could just spam with basic spells. But for expert level pvp your dps would increase.

 

Of course we shouldn't make people mix ingredients during combat.

Look, there are a whole host of things we could do to make pre-combat, during combat, and post combat more complex and challenging. But it's not a one to one proposition. The point of the thread is not to make combat work exactly like cooking. I'm trying to point out that baking an apple pie requires more commitment than having the power to catch everyone on fire using magical forces. It should be obvious why that's not good.

 

The problem is that nowadays people are in for fast entertainment. You go to the arena and shoot fireballs like others are sucking in air. Action, explosions, being the king of fireballs and owning everone. - that seems to be the goal of many of todays games, even (MMO)RPGs. There is no room for complexity or some slow going. Fast and hard action is it.

 

RG ultimately said you can play the game through without eating anything. :/ So you don't really have to eat anything.

And that's probably one reason why the devs are okay with making it a bit complex. As well as the fact that most players will buy their food off of others, and alchemy will be the same. So the people who like combat don't have to worry about cooking at all, while the people who like cooking will enjoy the role-playing.

What are you arguing for in magic, besides requiring reagents? I expect we'll see a little more complexity, like elemental magic depending on the weather and interesting spell combos.

 

Yes. Exactly right!

But then why is it ok for cooking and not magic? I don't like this inconsistency, not one bit. Why can't you bake an apple pie without reagents and it's just "less effective"?

 

I want magic to be as complex as cooking and nutrition.

Also, it's not true that you don't take a penalty for not eating...if everyone else gets a buff and you don't then you're behind everyone else.

 

Hard to know how much it'll matter or how many people will choose not to eat regardless. If anything, it would probably be for the auto-heal from the water elements in the food, though we're not sure how expensive healing potions will be.

What's your suggestions for magic?

 

A system like in the old Ultimas would be great. You would have to prepare spells in advance, by collecting or buying the proper reagents and finding or buying the spells. Dependent on the spells you choose and how many reagents you have you can prepare some of those spells and then cast them. If you do not have enough reagents, you cannot prepare the spell and thus you cannot cast it.
Also if you haven't found a particular spell in some ruin or haven't been taught the spell by a powerful mage and put it into your spellbook, then you simply cannot choose the spell-"skill" and not put any skillpoints in it. Thus you cannot use this spell.

 

It's a design decision that magic will be comparable to melee combat in terms of complexity and effectiveness. It makes it much easier to balance if the two systems are similar.

As for it being completely ludicrous that it's easier to summon a demon than it is to create pea soup, well, why do you say so? Have you ever summoned a demon before? (Or made pea soup?)

 

That sounds like exactly what I'd want to see.

 

I've summoned the power of Greyskull.. does that count?

 

You'd make the brighness / range of the light depend on the reagents and you'd have a summon get random attributes, where the seed and bonus depend on the reagents?

 

Actually no. The design decision according to both Chris and Darkstarr in the R9 post mortem was that magic was to be slightly more powerful than combat skills while still making both combat and magic balanced in terms of effectiveness. What that means is that your pure mage would be a "glass cannon" that a person with a sword could take down easily if only they could get close enough.

 

This way you would have to think about which spells to prepare. This would add some tactics to the magic system and combat.

 

It is an interesting take. I do not like the idea of no reagents. I wonder if you can make the first and second level alchemy potions without reagents lol. I do like the idea maybe of having an herbalist or alchemist (i suppose) have to combine the reagents for spells, and then sell them on a vendor. It would make sense then about how a mage can cast instantaneously in combat lol. (not having to combine reagents in real time)

 

Ok, but slightly more powerful, to me, shouldn't mean that a single fireball can destroy most foes. I get that a spell with a cast time should do more damage than a regular attack that is instant, but the higher you raise the complexity of magic, the more powerful you'll have to make it to compensate. Except doing that is dangerous because someone will find a way to work around the increased complexity, simplifying the process, and exploiting the greater power of magic.