No world chat in Shroud is a security risk, kills newbies, and perhaps a kitten or two.

I'm really skeptical about the idea that someone would think a game was really great, but stop playing only because it doesn't have a global chat.

That's all my comments on the subject.

 

@Greyfox : Correlation doesn't imply causation.

@Roper Docholiday: Which is commendable but looking for a solution doesn't necessarily mean you found the solution... or that there's even a solution at all. I love the idea of asking someone for help but implementing a global chat to allow this to happen has consequences; like everything else. If a new player is asking questions about the basics, then there's something wrong with how the game is relaying its information.

If you can generate a list of answers to questions a newbie might have then, theoretically, you found the answers that should already been answered by the game in the first place.

 

I think we should do away with chat altogether. Then we don't have to worry about someone getting scammed, or led astray by ner-do-wells. No chat would accelerate the release date too. Communication is too precious to leave to the masses. We must reduce the number of participants wherever we can. Having chat leads to rules. The list of rules must then be policed. Braggarts must be silenced, people selling stuff must be stuffed, people will say yes instead of aye, totally breaking immersion. It is obvious that chat has no place in a community setting. People may be exposed to be the dolts that they are, and that is not acceptable.

 

This thread seems to be mixing up two things: 1)problems new players are having and 2)the idea of a global chat.

1)to me this is a temporary problem....pre-alpha, starting zones and tutorial incomplete (though new overhaul in R22 I hear ) numerous changes on a monthly basis.....of course new players are having trouble!!! However, recommending permanent game changes to solve a temporary problem doesn't make sense. The devs are intelligent enough to solve this one...they KNOW new players need a better introduction to the game and are working on it. And, in the meantime, several players regularly devote their game time to assisting new people, one reason to believe this is a great community!

2) everyone's opinion will be different for this one. For me, well, the only other MMO I played was one where I turned off global chat on most occasions as it was a distracting mess with nothing useful (I did, however, use it to say goodbye to all when I left the game ). However, community-wide communication is more important in Shroud because the community has more to offer. I appreciate everyone who has put useful comments into this discussion because most of you have more experience than I do with global chats. Gives me something new to think about

 

I love this idea!

As a player who often finds it quite... QUIET in the game, I would love a chat channel in the game (not just or only a guild chat) that I can hang out in.

It makes sense to benefit from the wisdom of other multiplayer games, in which chat channels are often moderated by GMs who can ban, timeout, delete chats, etc.. as well as help players who have questions.

I'm loving the idea of a chat in which some of us take up the banner to answer questions and help moderate the channel, and provide a friendly public chat for those who wish to join it.

For those who don't wish to join it, they don't have to!

We can have the best of all worlds if we all work together.
<3 <3 <3

Great OP, Greyfox. Thanks for the discussion everyone! This has really been on my mind a lot, lately, and the clunky solution has been to alt tab or have another monitor with the IRC chat up.

 

Players should not have moderator access to anything in the game, and I'd rather the devs keep developing instead of GMing. Games often have a volunteer staff to do events and moderation, something less than a GM. I can see the current bug reporting being changed to go to a queue for these types of mods, but (I can tell you from experience) moderating a chat room is a horrible experience.

 

i like toothpaste!

is that anything like a fiddler? i could do with some good music right about now. and some popcorn.

ok, that actually made me LOL...woke up the dog. next door.

incorrect.

immersion is the basis that you lose your surroundings, the keyboard mouse, monitor, the room you are in, because the sensory inputs received from the game are drawing you in and keeping you there. global chat, i have only rarely ever seen be 'in character'... everyttime that blather pops up on the screen, it kicks me out the fourth wall, and i quickly lose interest at that time. the coconuts you speak of, i presume is the python-esque bomb thing, right? it fits in the game, doesn't break the fourth wall any more than it is designed to. for me at least.

immersion is THE reason i have never used a global chat system in a multiplayer game, and ALWAYS turned it off if it existed. and there are quite a few multiplayer games that do not utilize zone or global chat systems.

as i've said before, immersion is why i turn it off. i don't even care if it exists, BECAUSE i turn it off. however, looking at the bigger picture, i applaud the devs for not including it in the first place, because that will be a pretty big factor on dissuading gold sellers from doing business, no free advertising in the game. if it makes it in the game, i fear the death cycle will have started sooner than later, for this game.





seriously folks - why even argue this? in either direction? if they put it in, we have the option to not use it. it is up to them to decide if they want to open themselves up for spammers, scammers, trolls, and gold sellers. i'm of the opinion that they already made the decision.

 

I think its fair to discuss the pros and cons of any feature here in the forums I have no problem with Greyfox bringing it up. Its only a problem when people stop being civil about it.

I've already said my peace; I think we want to orient players who want help to role-playing tools in the game; social spaces like taverns, bulletin boards, and so forth. We all want all those things to be in the game and thrive, and I think a global chat will undercut them and cause them to be underutilized. I also think those role-playing tools will provide a better experience for new players than global chat.

 

Just my opinion based on many years of gaming but..... Gold sellers will be selling gold regardless if there is a global chat system or not. About the *only* way to truly get rid of *most* gold selling is for gold to be offered for sale for real money by the actual game. The *only* example I've seen however where you could buy in-game coin for real money by the dev is Wurm Online.

That said, I am *not* saying the devs should put in a way to buy gold. But I am pointing out that gold seller spam is a pretty weak argument. As is the "immersion" BS people are talking about in my opinion.

The guild power excuse, weak since I have the feeling the vast majority utilize some form of voice chat such as Mumble, TeamSpeak, Ventrilo. Which incidentally is *very* cheap for the most part. An 8 person Ventrilo server can be run on your own PC for free. But hosted servers run for as little as 5usd per month depending on service and capacity.

I agree the tutorial needs work and I'm glad to hear they are working on it. But I sure hope it isn't just walls of text since even myself, a looooong time gamer will admit. I don't want to read a flipping novel on basic or even slightly advanced gameplay. Non-interactive tutorials in this day and age are silly. If done right, then yes, the debate for a global chat is a hair moot. I say a hair because unless there are a *lot* of people running around to talk to, etc. without some form of wider area chat, the game will feel stale, lonely and more like a single player game not the hybrid MMO that is planned.

Anyway, all the above wall of text is only my personal opinion of which I am sure many will disagree with.

/edit
For the RP crowd I must ask, if you're able to turn off any global or regional chat, how does it "break" the game for you? Also, why should people be basically forced to a tavern, bar, etc.?

Think of it this way. You're in a tavern, RPing and having fun. Some new player or even non-new player comes in and starts spamming WTB Flamming Halbard of DOOM! PST!. Not much different other than they had to walk to that local tavern area. Just sayin.

 

<--- Here's an honest question. What's wrong with it feeling like a single player game?

There will of course be people to meet in the game, and places where you can meet them. Likely it will help if when a new player starts out some NPC or the tutorial notes players hang around in places like taverns or public squares. But until you run into them, I don't see why it shouldn't feel like a single player game.

 

Because NPCs even if scripted well never make the world feel "alive" to me. Where as seeing others run around conducting whatever business they are doing does. On top of that, "multiplayer" is a pretty key word in the MMO acronym as is "massively". But to each their own and I will not begrudge anyone for their likes or dislikes.

 

Howdy folks,

Well, I got thru the first 4 pages of this before I decided I had to add more to my original post.

We have global chat...well maybe I do....I'm in a guild, and we have guild chat.....it's used some, but not a whole lot, usually only to inform those guild members who are not logged into mumble to get to a meeting or something. See what I did there?

Guild member, in game global chat
mumble, ventro, skype and numerous others, global chat
new player with a friend, global chat

Global chat is there, for lots of folks who play. You maybe a bit limited as to whom you are speaking (your guild or group of friends), that's often all you need to answer a question or two. The folks I talk to are interesting, informative, funny, helpful, etc. With no global chat we are excluding the new folks who come in, in the future, to trying to figure out what the hell to do (think about the frustration folks had with Stanley when he did not work properly, a global chat function could have nipped that in the bud for alot of folks). I think you will be limiting alot of new folks.......and all you folks who are reading this now will be leaps and bounds in front of someone who comes in at release. You'll already have your global chat network working for you as well as houses, goodies, a lay of the land, info on critters, where to go for XP or gold, etc. If my grandsons want to play (buying a few accts for upcoming birthdays) and PaPa isn't available to assist, how happy they gonna be if they can't jump into a chat to ask folks a question? Don't say they can run to town and ask person to person. They are gonna want to stand just outside of Kings Road and ask someone a question, not have to run back to town and try a number of folks before someone gives them an answer. Then run back to where they were, getting pulled into an instance and dieing before they get back. I'm not wanting to make the game easy, or simple, but I would like to make it fun.

Chat can be watched, moderated, gold spammers can be booted, and maybe a function can be added that a mod can boot someone from the chat for only a brief time if they are acting a fool. I don't know. When I started, no guild, friends flaked out on me and decided not to play until release and I floundered around like a fish outta water with no one to cry to. I don't want my grandsons to do that....I don't want other new players to do that, I want them to step in and have fun. Don't want the Global Chat, turn it off.

 

I have been helping new players get acquainted with the game i have spent the last two days several hours standing around soultown answering questions. the number one thing i hear besides thank you is that they have been running around for days dieing and not understanding things and not many people are talking to them, i remember when i first started i would get lost so bad in the hidden vale map and quit playing till it got to be daylight. i would log in if it was night i would log back out. that was the hidden vale map that is not novia where people are stranded at after starting the game. how many towns are there in the game? in those towns how many have bars/pubs and of those how many actually have people milling about to answer questions. example... walk into fire lotus tavern any day of the week and see how many people are there. i don't think 30 days of noob global like chat hurts anyone. During that time they will be shown how to find the bars that have people in that will help probably would have joined a guild. We now the players that have been playing a while and the ones who post regularly in the forums. we know the game where to go what to do. we have friends in the game we chat up to ask questions all the time. Bottom line is we have friends in this game. imagine being a bit shy knowing no one in the game standing around lost confused frustrated cause you are dying a lot and people not talking to you at all. After launch this little group that knows everyone will flooded with new players were we will be the minority if the game. there will be scammers evil pker's players that ignore people and guilds will start getting more elite.

Point 2

why is it so hard for people to find a middle ground and work with it there. everyone is so entrenched with there view that no one is willing to go to the middle ground to even make a little progress.

I admit i hate global chat it ruins game's (not immersion but game play its self) However i believe in my honest opinion that we should have some form of it at start to get players situated in the game. hell how bad is 30 days or till you join a guild really. we want this game to be fun for everyone not just those that are gaming gods and play the we want to play.
here are some brief example's

1) spo players withen 6 months people will be able to find on the net somewhere a complete walk through guide to sp content

2) pvp guess what non pvper's dont like you. get over it. there will be plenty of people to kill when the game goes live

3) crafters no matter how much you try to keep recipes a secret in time everyone of them will be online. it will happen

4) botters/gold sellers they will be in the game. we wont like it and it will be our job to identify them and hopefully have the tools to ruin there day.

5) rpg guess what there will always be someone that will find enjoyment is trying to ruin what you have tried so hard to make. we have the tools in the game to prevent that but those players will always be in the game.

What we need to do is stop attacking ideas and thoughts that have nothing to do with our personal play style.

 

I played both UO and EQ at release. The think-headed player base in both who object to change are why both of those games are niche products that are slowly dying off as their player base dies or finally moves on.

An online game needs new people to join, and stay, to remain healthy. Roper's post is completely true. I'd rather lose every cool "old timer" than never gain a new player to the game.

This isn't about personal feelings, immersion nonsense, what I want is what I want kiddies, this is about keeping Shroud healthy in the long term. Eventually without new players we will all be dusty old kings and queens sitting in our hilltop castles wondering where everyone went. Perhaps for some this scenario is enjoyable gameplay. For those, I hope you move on to single player games like Witcher or Skyrim.

Without some easy form of global chat implemented to encourage and enable socialization Shroud will die off. That's not opinion, that is fact supported by every other MMO type game released since UO.

 

No no no no no global chat. Roper, if you have a "new guild" guild them then they have the world chat they need. You can help and answer them then.

 

The problem I have with this is their reasoning for delaying this aspect of the game. If you're trying to bring in new players, the last thing you want to do is make them suffer. Sure, "your last bit of content is your best" and you want your introduction area to be the best but you still need SOMETHING.

Because there's no introduction levels. It goes straight from the "here's how you attack" (tutorial) to "there is only DEATH and DESPAIR!" Add to the fact that this game is being praised for not giving a !@#$ because "we don't like hand-holding here, so we'll have none of that -crucial information- business around here", also with imbalanced combat skills (understandably so, it's pre-alpha) and you got yourself a VERY unwelcoming piece of software.

Make ONE ZONE, just ONE zone with a recycled environment and place some weak monsters in it... make that an encounter that pops up 80% of the time when you're in the overworld map when you're below a certain character level (I'd say anything bellow level 10). If the devs are so keen on keeping the Tour Guide (misleading name, btw) in the one area where new players spawn, at least give him dialogue that says "Stay in the overworld in the area around Soltown and run around until weak monsters attack you". It's cheap but at least it would be functional.

Heck, an even better solution would be to make all new characters at least level 10 (15 if you want them to have an easier time) with a appropriately leveled combat skills.

I say the "Tour Guide" has a misleading name because it should be called "Advanced Expedition".

If you actually fix that instead of relying on your few players to moderate and spend their time acting like Walmart greeters, you'll have way more people playing and THEN, your local chat (not to be confused with global chat) will be populated and the game will feel much more alive.

Not to mention I'd rather have a solution that works in Offline Mode... so the global chat idea is just global chat because you want global chat, not because it's a solution to a problem.

You confuse "Facts" with "Thesis".

 

How about NPC guilds? Part of the tutorial will be joining that guild and being given a guild sigil, introduced to communication, etc. that way, the very beginning of the game can be devoted to movement, learning controls and possibly brief combat tutorial (hopefully after a gypsy sequence), and then you only introduce mass communication when it would not overwhelm everything else.

This way, those who don't want to worry about "newbie" chat can leave that guild, while those who want to help or need assistance can stay in and learn from each other. Win-win?

 

Greyfox, i was in beta for both, paid QA for EQ actually in pre-alpha stages doing collision testing mostly. and i remember it a bit differently.

EQ: release date - march 16, 1999 - they did not update from the origional technology they introduced in the game, that is why they are losing their playerbase - so many new games with much better game mechanics have been released since. plus, this was a AAA game that had sony backing it, meaning their entire desire was for mass appeal and simply making as much cash as they possibly can. it wasn't thick-headed players, it was thick-headed SOE employees that killed it. it just isn't done bleeding out yet. and yes, i played it for five years, after release.

UO: release date - september 24th, 1997 - only two years before EQ. again, they didn't upgrade the technology when the technology was created..but they kept their playerbase longer than ANY online game out there. many have heard about sota, and came onboard, thats wehre most of the playerbase originated from. they too had a business model that they were kind of forced to market to the masses, while they struggled to keep as true to ultima as they could. personally, i think they did a decent job...but time moved on and gamers of all ages needed better tech. so they too moved on.

as for new players, i've heard that very close to 80%, haven't heard of UO before. to my mind, that is where most of the cry from the folks who have been brainwashed (and some jaded by, since) by the blizzard business model, of mass market appeal that basically states "people are sheep, we know what they want and like, they do not." - this game is for a niche market, it is not for mass appeal. it is also blending multiple technologies to bring rpg and mmo players together, but it is NOT a mmo by definition. strike the first M, massively, and that is closer to it by design. i believe they coined "Selective Multiplayer Online" as the type of game. - that group (i dub them blizzard groupies), the ones who dislike change from that model, i believe is who needs to evolve with gaming, instead of trying to force games to stagnate and keep a model they are used to seeing.

 

Also we shouldn't forget that if any global chat solution was put in. The quality and quantity of said chat would be a reflection of the player base and community as a whole. Sadly it seems many think the majority of our current player base and community are the type to spam said chat with garbage, although I beg to differ. I think the garbage spewing people are fewer in number in this community and a tried and true simple method of /ignore <player> works fine.

/edit

Oh, and whether it's called "selective" or "massively", there is still the key word of "multiplayer".

 

This made me lol. Has this even happened, or are you using an extremely fictional situation to give credit to your argument

People are new to the game, not to pc's when they come to this and would not type their email and password into IRC, or any other chat for that matter unless it was maybe a 10yo who decided to play this of all games for their first ever game to play or your grandma wanted to kill some fools to remind her of UO days, or world war 2.

Good try though haha.