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The Grind

Discussion in 'Release 24 Feedback' started by Poor game design, Nov 19, 2015.

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  1. Drocis the Devious

    Drocis the Devious Avatar

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    @Chris, how many players that played in R23 made it past level 70? Level 40? And what percentage of the total (active*) player base did that represent?

    I'd also love to know what the average experience modifier was for those people. Mine stopped at about level 39, so I wonder if once that stopped people started to slow down? Once that stopped did people stop playing? That would be interesting to know too.

    *I think it's fair if we define active as any player that put in more than 2 hours of total time into the game. That assumes that they didn't just log on to get a Tour Guide Hat for their alt.

    OH YEAH, and this is a big one. How many of these players are gust balling their way to higher skill levels? Because I'm not doing that at all.
     
    Last edited: Nov 19, 2015
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  2. FrostII

    FrostII Bug Hunter

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    My highest level in R23 was Polearm Combat @ 97.
    I harvested everywhere and I killed the mobs that were there.
    That is what I've been doing in R23.
    I started in Tier 1 areas and I'm now tough enough to be efficient in Tier 5's.

    I don't PvP, nor do I care one bit about the large minority who seem to be here solely for the PvP.

    I think the progression is going along about as quickly as I expected it would, given the 4x multiplier we have been enjoying. If you think it's tough now, wait till we go live and those 4x XP's are history.....

    I see no problem with the current skill progression......... ;)
     
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  3. Drocis the Devious

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    I'm talking about adventure levels. Hit 'V' and it will tell you what yours is at the top.

    Btw, having a 97 Polearm in PVP alone would not help you much. You also need about 500 hit points and a ton of innates to compete.
     
  4. Beaumaris

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    Because this is how open world PVP has been and always will be in RPGs which have a leveling component. There are other genres (FPS) that do not have this requirement. Again, that is for open world PVP. If you are willing to live with and restrict activities to PVP instances (like used in SWTOR for example), then level scaling seems possible. Is that what you are asking for?
     
  5. Solstar

    Solstar Avatar

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    Port has all the numbers. They will tune accordingly. A couple dozen people on the forums probably aren't gonna change that.

    But the fact that there is disagreement is a good thing.
     
  6. Drocis the Devious

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    There are probably many ways it could be done. I have my own ideas about it and could suggest 20 different ways. But the purpose of this thread is to build awareness that I believe it's hurting PVP overall.

    1. If people can't win at pvp, they're not going to just show up for the sake of it. So the PVP population will be low.
    2. If some people like PVP but hate grinding, then we're asking them to waste a ton of hours in this game doing stuff that they don't enjoy.
    3. If the only thing that separates winning and losing in PVP is levels, then you're excluding a lot of people from winning and giving an advantage to people with a lot of free time on their hands.
    4. If people want to know who's really good at PVP it's always going to be debatable because becoming good at PVP is not based on anything directly related to PVP, it's based on grinding and spending time NOT in PVP.

    I could go on and on.

    I think at the end of the day if we're serious about populating pvp areas, we can't just say "see you in 4 to 12 months when you've leveled enough to not be instantly killed by someone that made this their entire life!" I understand that MANY RPG's work like this, but that doesn't mean we have to. It also doesn't mean those RPG's were good.

    I never played EQ and I never played WOW for this very reason. I don't play games to stand around killing the same AI over and over again. It's not fun for me.
     
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  7. StrangerDiamond

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    I'm laughing in my beard here Baron, because I have the solution to all your woes, in fact everyone would be so happy.

    Noone will listen to me, just because I'm a bit rude. Really thats all it is, I have a serpent tongue and I'm being punished, you're being punished, so many are punished... and for no good reason because I can adapt to any engine.

    Ah, life.
     
  8. Drocis the Devious

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    I'll bite. What's the solution?
     
  9. CaptainJackSparrow

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    Captain Jack wonders, isn't this over grind problem simply a result of repeated wipes? When the wipes stop so too will you're grinding after a short time. Sure you might have to spend a bit of extra time leveling still due limited time but once you do, you're done and you don't have to worry about it.
     
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  10. Drocis the Devious

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    That's a reasonable question.

    If I'm level 40 after 4 months, and the top PVP players are level 75 (let's just say)...
    and then after 6 months I'm level 60 and the top PVP players are level 100.
    and then after 12 months I'm level 100 and the top PVP players are level 130? And now finally after 1 full year of playing we can compete on a semi-equal playing field but hey they're always going to have an advantage because why else would they keep leveling if there were no benefit, right?

    Oh by the way, the reason I want to play this game is so I can PVP and RP, and the scenario above assumes I'm not doing either of those things because I'm so busy grinding.

    Are you picking up what I'm putting down? The system that's being described is not one where I can compete for a year, or ever have a real advantage. Why would I want to do that? Why would we make a game like that?

    Now this is all theory and as Solstar correctly pointed out, the devs have the numbers and so they should be able to see this is a potential problem if the numbers look how I think they'll look. But that's the reason why. Because this progression system is called a grind for a reason.
     
  11. CaptainJackSparrow

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    Captain Jack believes you already have the answer. You asked why would the PvP players keep leveling if there were no benefit? Why are there levels? Player gratification over time, leveling is like a drug to gamers. They want you to feel a need to come back other than simply the fact that you enjoy the game, because not ever gamer is the same.

    Captain Jack knows there are always going to be those players that live out of their spreadsheets and macros and unless you join them you'll never beat them. Just something every player needs to decide and come to terms with.

    Even so, Captain Jack thinks that once the PvE stuff is in, this will severely cut grinding time as you complete quests, missions, or whatever and get XP as a reward, no?
     
  12. StrangerDiamond

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    Thats the thing, I'm reluctant to talk about it openly so much anymore, because I'm intimately linked to it and people who dislike it, really dislike it.

    Sensibilities, just like yours.

    Its a long story, you know parts of it, but I have to tell it with certain means so it really becomes more than just numbers.

    Those means can only be provided by portalarium, and these days people don't have a few hours to spare to hear "your highschool stories" it seems.

    But in fact thats the thing, it would be so radically wonderous that everyone even the hardcore powergamers would be completely hooked, and it would make WoW and other such games look like childplay.

    All using the same system, kindof, the same engine, the same art, the same team.

    It's a parallel reality as it stands because I represent a very, very powerful idea. Which is not mine, and that I'm just lucky to pass on.

    Problem is, right now in my field of awareness at least, only portalarium is qualified to "receive" this gift.

    And my inbox is empty, even if I'm not asking for ANYTHING in returm... not one damned piece of materialistic or spiritualochistic chunk of something.
     
  13. Drocis the Devious

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    Sure, that will help. And yes, there's a part of gaming culture that won't change regardless of mechanics. I'd just like to try to make it a little better than it is. I'd just like to see the game attempt to balance the playing field a bit.
     
  14. Gabriel Nightshadow

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    Yeah, I only manage to get in about two hours a night myself, and I only reached level 44 in R23 (even with the 4x multiplier) :(
     
  15. jschoice

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    Drocis what kind of PvPer do you consider yourself? Are you someone who likes to duel or participate in tournaments? Do you like to be a stealth open world PvP that likes to sneak up to people? I never see you grouping with anyone in world so you must not be into small group PvP. I ask this because I either PvP alone or with a couple of friends and I am only level 41. I don't feel that I am at a disadvantage. I have killed players that had a skill or two at GM level in open world PvP. When with friends in a small group of 3 we have held our own against a group with 4 or 5 people. Perhaps it is because my friends and I have been PvPing together for 1o years. I recommend you try and get a small crew together and wreck some havoc, you might find it more fun.
     
  16. Drocis the Devious

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    I'm very anti-social. I have a hard time being a good team player. :)

    I have people I could group with, but they're about my level or slightly higher and they can't compete against most of these guys either. So we go back and grind, and grind, and get bored out of our skulls.

    I'm not into tournaments or duels. I like open world PVP and I like PVP to have meaningful RP behind it whenever possible. These things are harder to get in Pre-Alpha testing, I understand. I'm thinking more about what happens at launch.

    From my perspective, someone that likes PVP should be able to participate in it day one, not day 365.
     
  17. FrostII

    FrostII Bug Hunter

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    Seriously?
    Has anyone ever accurately described what that number reflects?


    Ok, then my "Adventurer Level" in R23 was a mere 65 (a ways beyond the bar you set at 41), and my Innates are as expected - given the time I've played and what I've done - with the pertinent ones comfortably in the 80's....

    I see absolutely no problem with the current progression of skills...;)
     
    Last edited: Nov 19, 2015
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  18. Drocis the Devious

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    Ha!

    Ok, look first off I'm not saying that the number itself is good or bad. What you have to understand is that if you have a high adventure level then you have more skill points than someone else that has a lower one. Which is why if you're level 80 something, you probably (unless you didn't train in anything that would raise your hit points) have enormous hit points! (like 500+) Some people have near 700!

    So while you may feel that 65 is nothing, you'd destroy me because I'm only level 41. And sure, you've "played" more than I have.

    So here's my question to you. Why not let me buy levels in the add-on store? You're getting them for the extra playing time you have, but you're not spending any money or doing anything skills based, you're just "playing more" just like you said. So how about since I don't have enough time because of my other commitments to life, I'll just pay for my levels and be level 1000. Does that sound like fun?

    Do you think all the people that play more than I do would enjoy a game like that? I don't think they would, but maybe you and I can lead the charge for buying levels, what do you say?
     
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  19. Themo Lock

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    dude no, c'mooon
     
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  20. Drocis the Devious

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    I'm not serious about wanting to pay for levels, but I'm completely serious about it being the same thing as using time played as a currency.

    This is literally how I feel about the current system, it's play time to win. It's not skill to win. It's "I logged in and killed stuff more than you did".

    I was told by someone once that they used to play WOW pvp competitively, and in order to keep up with everyone else do you know what they had to do? They had to hire someone to play their account while they slept. They paid some third world kid to go out and level up their toon so that the account would remain productive 24/7.

    How is that any different than pay to win? Time = Money.

    So again, I'm not serious about paying for levels. I know it would be bad for the game. Just like making time played is. That was my point in the last post.
     
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