Disruption of Events in PvP POT's...

I truly believe this is 90% of the issue. Good call.

@Violation Clauth LOTC is always up for a good scrum, send word, we'll be there!! (good Darkstarr/Chaos emblem vid too , wish I could make the Con)

 

We have open PvP all the time full speed in shardfalls.
Why does my PvP POT have to fall under the same rules as a shardfall?
Could I please at some point have a way to change the PvP rules in my town?
Or remove people that are ruining the games that are held there?

I dont want my town to be like every one elses town and I will cry about it all day long, I am not a number !!!!!!!!!!

Ash

 

We might take you up on that! And thanks.

I agree some basic mechanics failing to function are a huge issue... targeting and shooting people through walls is silly... killing people from 300+ meters out with spells that are designed to work 20 meters is insane... all that said: I still think we have enough good people here that will corpse camp them and make it so the EVL events can continue.

 

I agree with Drocis. PvP should have rules, but let them be rules that resemble a type of realistic expectation of how society deals with unruly people (criminals). Even Tomb Stone Arizona had laws, and they did have creeps like the ones mentioned above. However enough was enough and Wyatt Erp hunted these guys down.

Criminals are violators of the laws of society which the people have agreed upon. PvP shouldn't just be let's just kill anybody because it is fun, and nobody should just run in and ruin a guild event. That isn't cool. However banning a player from a PvP flagged town is not a realistic way of dealing with it, and it isn't a reasonable one since it can be used to create an unrealistic and unfair advantage by banning the most powerful enemies etc etc so that only people you think you can kill show up to your town and you kill everybody that walks in the gate.

The answer keeps pointing to one thing. A JUSTICE SYSTEM:

People who attack and kill people for no reason, need to be named a criminal, and shouldn't be allowed to go back and get the blessing of the oracle. REMEMBER WHEN LORD BRITISH SAID there could be a quest that a person carries contraband across the land AND it will notify everybody in the area they are comming through....

Here's the mechanic right there. THe contraband in this scenerio is the actual murder themselves. Players who attack without provocation and end up slaying the opponent should allow for that victem to report the murder. The Oracle already keeps track of loot!!! The oracle could keep track of murderers as well, and the oracle can notify that there is a villan on the loose coming your way.

We also need the ability to attack players from the over land map so that we can haul these criminals in. Murderers should be attackable without a penalty. Legal bounties could be placed on these people.

also ASSASINATION CONTRACTS:
.... these sorts of rules though can be turned the other way and be used for evil if so desired... say instead of putting a bounty on a killer, what about putting a contract on a prominant player, and criminals? and it is up to the assassin to track that player down and get them when they are vulnerable (in PvP zone or flagged). This is better than just a bounty that is paid for by a town, but this is an agreed upon contract between two players for possibly a much larger sum of money upon the return of proof of death.

Although I would hope that Assasination contracts automatically flag the assassin a murderer too. Even if the assassin were to kill a known murderer it shouldn't be something that is honorable. They should be like the ninja that live without honor.

 

I disagree with this aspect of the above statement, the individuals involved were not griefing.

Yes, you are a free man:


Number Six: Where am I?
Number Two: In the Village.
Number Six: What do you want?
Number Two: Information.
Number Six: Whose side are you on?
Number Two: That would be telling. We want information… information… information.
Number Six: You won't get it.
Number Two: By hook or by crook, we will.
Number Six: Who are you?
Number Two: The new Number Two.
Number Six: Who is Number One?
Number Two: You are Number Six.
Number Six: I am not a number! I am a free man!
Number Two: [laughs]

The nature of most PvP events is that troublemakers get to enjoy their content but everyone else is impacted. The staff/guards/crowd usually helps run off the troublemakers, so in the grand scheme of things it is an inconvenience.

The interruptions at the Virtue League the last couple weeks were not griefing, the troublemakers were in fact conducting a calculated coordinated strike/assassination attempt on an enemy who was in attendance at said event and certainly by extension that individuals followers. I will leave it to others to judge the merits of their actions, but PvP system in place says you have to opt in to be attacked, go to a PvP zone, flag PvP with the oracle or by aiding a PvP flagged player, etc. Once you do that you are opting into consensual PvP and therefore being attacked anywhere, anytime, by anyone. If your enemy target - is the leader of a RP PvP guild and that leader strangely isn't flagged PvP, then you can't attack him unless he opts into PvP by going into a PvP zone. So if the only time this enemy target can be attacked is when he comes to an event in a PvP town, what's a bloodthirsty mob of PvP'ers to do? Of course....one attacks when you have your only opportunity.

In general terms, they did interrupt the PvP events the last couple weeks - causing excitement and bloodshed in both cases and revealed some flaws in the system Portalarium has put in place.

Problems with the current ways to mitigate the impact of consensual opt-ing in to PvP (eg. everyone who shows up) impacting a PvP event include:
#1 Lot Ban & Locked Doors - doesn't stop damage from AoE style spells through walls, climbing walls, etc.

#2 Moving the Event into a Basement where your ban (#1)/locked doors keeps someone out - Doesn't always meet the needs of the event, space, etc. A big event the Virtue League only fits in a Keep Basement and that therefore necessitates someone using a Keep Lot to hold the event on. A PvP event that requires an entire zone to complete is easily interfered with.

#3 Concentric layers of walls - Wall Gates not located on a plot are not lockable, therefore you need at minimum an extra village lot and eating up the towns decoration limit, walls in towns not on lots can be climbed by creative players.

Solutions:
#1 Make damage stop going through walls, thereby mitigating the damage once the troublemakers are lot banned.

#2 Town Ban list for PvP towns. Still unclear on why their isn't one...I guess it's so that cowardly PvP guilds hiding in their town and then kicking a portion of a invading force so they can beat the remnants?

#3 Once upon a time, we were promised the ability to make our "lots" PvP - but that's been changed to you can make your basement PvP. Lot PvP would allow you to hold the event in a normal POT and then overcome all the problems that group PvP has by the lot making PvP. Then you could town ban troublemakers and still hold events.

Anyway, open to suggestions or ideas on how to have fun PvP events with minimal options for troublemakers.

V/R Brickbat

 

If you want to hold an event and not get disturbed by other attacking.......don't hold it in a PvP pot.

I don't really see the issue tbh.

 

The least amount of works on coding side to deal with situation is to host event on the Non-pvp town, then have all participants flag for PVP. This way the governor can still boot the griefer.


Alternatively we could have someway for governor to mark a person as "exiled" why they won't get banned from town, it will take longer for them to get rezzed and come back.

I think there are other ways to address this issue without altering the non ban policy on pvp town.

 

Nope it's not griefing. Just like the guy who was killing the player over and over again in UO that lord british told the guy not to kill the guy and he did it again.

The laws have to change. The rules of the game needed to change. Although I doubt we need to have such serious penalties as UO did for murder since PVP is optional... stat loss etc. It should definiately effect how people interact with these players. It might be dishonorable to do business with Murderers. Prices might go up for them in certain areas due to the sensitive nature of having a murderer showing up at your place of business. Also the business owners might refuse to buy any loot from them too. Either that or the place of business calls the cops as soon as the guy buys their stuff and all the poeple in the city are alerted to the presence of the criminal.

 

Exiled from a place does not allow for a person to come back to the place. HOwever those who accepted exile as a sentance knew that if they ever returned they would be put to death! That's how exile should work in PvP towns. Anybody who has been exiled FOR ANY REASON should then become a criminal by entering that town again and is subject to execution. Anybody who brings them to justice does not get a murder accounted against them. Also unless the exiled player is really good at stealth the whole town should be notified once any character (including NPCs) see this character. In this case the exiled can be for any reason the town owner determines.


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It would suck that PvP would be ruined due to a player getting banned from a town. Especially if they got exiled for being a spy or a scout. Shouldn't PvP towns be open to PvP? Why ban players with an invisible shield that won't let them in. If you want that then have a non-pvp town. I think it sounds fun for those who want to live in a PvP environment to actively be aware of potential rivals. Especially if you have a rival guild. Rival guilds might send in spys and stealth scouts to see where people are and then they all rush in once they know they have the advantage or whatever.

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Player Owned Towns are just that - player owned.

There's plenty of areas for full on PVP where folks can camp ankhs and chase down weaker prey all day long and kill them over and over and over again and call it PVP. In the spirit of RP, people have POTs for all sorts of different reasons... POTs need more control; if someone wants it - give it to them... it's a POT.

 

if you need the protections of a basement but the size of an open scene, how about the ability to create an invite-only instance?

 

You have a good point about POT owners having control. They do have control. They might need a ruleset that gives them more of an active presence while not hindering the PvP mechanic.

It seems to me that accepting the PvP flag makes a player susceptible to attack. Same should hold true to a POT. PvP just needs to allow for penalties, and maybe they are more severe if the Ruler of the town has it out for a person.

 

Hopefully the amount of NPC's get increased for POT's to compete with the PRT's. This way POT owners could add more guards to their town. Might consider allowing POT owners and stewards to add offending players to the KOS list of the town. So this wouldn't ban them from the town, but it would cause guards to react to these players. Perhaps there can be different types of guards - mages, archers, etc. and maybe guards could be stationed in a tower or tall structure for better line of sight. Some guards could patrol the area, etc.

 

Yes.

Just to be clear though. Currently there are is no guard AI. There is no KOS list.

 

Yes. My vote is this.

The game shouldn't be like that. We need to keep in mind that new players will come into this game every day. PoT content is HUGE on the map... 200 towns! It's too much content to have confusing rule changes on half the zones... standardized rules need to be sufficient for the overall gaming experience.

Friend's play online. Already exists and should just be refined in the future.

I agree with NPC guards in PvP POTs... I think they should have a tax just like lots have to them though. There needs to be a cost. I think they should also be absolutely MAX'd out at 50% of the town owner's level and they should operate like wild animals: no control. When you are a citizen+ of the town you will be exempt from being attacked. Besides that if you have a guard you toggle them on/off and when they're on anyone in combat gets attacked... when they're off they only defend themselves when attacked. When you have an extremely active and powerful town owner you would have a reward for living with them... just like IRL.


I love this conversation. I love that PvP towns matter. I think the bigger picture needs to be that we cannot have a bunch of player created content and then demand attention when we don't have player created solutions. Bugs are an issue, absolutely. But they're a two-way issue. I still say the resolution here is what has worked for OoV for the last two years: KoS list and allies.

 

Well he isn't the leader of a RP PvP guild. A Guild that has some PvP players does not make it a PvP guild. Especially when the vast majority of the members do not PvP.

But hey, who cares if the spectators get killed or pick pocketed.. It's a PvP POT right...Let's give the spectators more reasons not to come to watch PvP events...and then we wonder when people don't come back...

 

Uh, yes there is... it's just player created, enforced, and controlled.

PLAYER SOLUTIONS WORK!

I'll leave you alone. I know what you're going for and it's fine. I just don't want to see time taken away from debugging the game and making systems to do what is fluff... imo.

 

Interesting! This has lots of possibilities. What kind of payments? What kind of Guards? This could even lead to additional PvP oriented tasks. Like fortifying a base.

Would be it be more costly to fortify a metropolis than a holdfast?

 

Have to be in a party for Friends Only. So as it is now that's 8 people. There are lots of folks at these events, 50+ on most weeks if I had to guess. So even a 24 man party wouldn't work.

This, so much this!

 

Let's take a very quick look at your solution.

1. Does it scale well?

Uh gee, Drocis. What do you mean? Well I mean if 20 players run into Vengeance right now and kill everything in sight and spawn camp you for the next several hours, does your player controlled solution scale well? The answer is no, no it doesn't. You would have to call in help from other people. Ultimately either your side or their side would win the battle of "calling in other people" and for the first night that might be fun and exciting for you, or perhaps all the people you know of are not playing tonight and you're forced to be camped out of the town that you paid $5000 for because your solution doesn't scale well.

Don't even get me started on how well that works if this game gets popular. What are you going to do, have a 10k person guild that protects the whole world 24x7? That doesn't even sound like PVP anymore, it just sounds like "join us or die".

2. Is is stable?

Well no it's not stable because when you're online may not be the same time that other people are online. This results in the people playing the game while you and many other are working getting spawn camped by people from other countries, in different time zones, or that just plain have nothing better to do but play the game 24x7. So no, it's not a stable solution.

3. Does it actually fix the problem?

No, it doesn't do that either. Because every time you have an event, you're now required to have an exponential amount of people that can be online and who WANT to pvp at the drop of a hat. So you're letting the people that are attacking pick the time place at their convenience, all of which puts a huge strain on the people that you need to make your solution work. Again, it might seem like a lot of fun the first time, but what about the 10th time in a row? No, it's not fixing anything, it's actually making the problem worse because your solution is playing right into the hands of the people that are attacking. You're playing THEIR game and saying we're going to out spawn camp you until you get tired of playing.

See KAAOS from Asheron's call and let me know how well that's going to work out for you over time.

4. The idea that this is "fluff" is insulting. Not just because it's not true, but because it's coming from the same person that had the devs create this HORRIBLE system we have now where players that are not flagged and attack other players that are. You want real pvp? Well the first step is going to be getting everyone on the same playing field. But let's put that aside for a second. Why did you want players that were not flagged to be able to jump into a fight? Oh that's right, because "you didn't want players to have to run back to the Oracle" while the people that were flagged in your guild were getting their butts kicked. You needed all hands on deck immediately and your player solution wasn't working because some people in your guild didn't like the inconvenience, or used it as an excuse to not participate so they could keep grinding.

Look man, if you have ideas or solutions that you want to promote, that's fine. But when you point your finger directly at me and tell me my ideas are not worth development time and are fluff, that's crossing the line. What I'm trying to do is get a PVP GAME developed where all playing styles are encouraged, and you don't have to join someone's stupid guild to have a chance of competing and having fun. To accomplish that, the world needs to have different levels of danger associated with it where players can survive without having to call in help from 20 other players that may or may not be available.