Starr Long Discusses Chaotic Aspects of SOTA Combat

I already stated earlier, that eventhough its a card type system ill work with whatever, im still gonna pvp or pk kill with those settings.

 

It's interesting to see the perception that one in-game system makes one game a clone of another. I disagree with that perception. The only thing that makes a game a clone of another, in any meaningful sense of the word clone, is if it is identical in all respects.

Yes, I want this game to be unique. But only in every other way except the combat UI, if this system, as described, makes it "unique".

Yes, I have thought this through, at considerable length, and posted compromises and replacement systems that bring complete randomization and/or dynamicism to combat, without randomizing the UI. It is entirely possible to have "random" combat without a random combat UI.

If, by using a mental model, problems are discovered with an in-game system, it is likely such problems will appear in the real system.
Once again, a screenshot of the current system and/or a 30 second video would confirm/deny many fears.

 

Your logic is flawed.

It's not black or white, either cards or WoW, and while story, converstaion style, crafting, and exploration will do a lot to draw us in, much, if not a majority, of most peoples time will be spent in combat. It's important to get it right.

I'm all for an improvement over the WoW system. But change for the sake of change does not mean it will definately be better. It's important to look at this system with a critical eye early, find it's flaws and either disect them, or abandon the system and find something better.

There have been alternatives presnted, both by myself and others. We won't see those till after Alpha begins, but we need people asking the right questions about it. The question should not be "Is this different?" or even "Is this innovative?" but the question should be "Is this the best we can do?"

I, and many others, don't think this is the best we can do.

This gets a push back on a different level than the conversation system did. The skill system might not be what everyone envisioned, but it doesn't really generate this same level of discord. The combat system is splitting the community, and for some of us, including some people like myself who feel WoW was a dumbing down of combat, we feel this dumbs it down further. Reducing options available at any point in time is not the hallmark of an old school RPG.


So yes, while I'd like something better than WoW, I can honestly see this combat system as being a deal breaker for me. Something where, for the first time, I don't finish a Lord British game because I find myself spending more time angry at the interface than I do at the antagonists.

 

See, that's one of the things I actually preferred about WoW PvP. I had some really nice items, which looked cool, and did cool stuff, and I liked using them. Being proud of the sword that I got by organizing a pair of half guild half pug Onyxia raids every week, for months, that made me a slightly better tank and PvP threat than I was without it, that was part of why I gave a damn about the game. When the new team at blizzard sent through a patch that deleted that item from the game, and I logged in to find my character's hand empty, I damn near quit the game that minute, just because of the loss of that sword. I LIKE having irreplacable things, and the idea of having them taken away every time I'm defeated in PvP just kills the enjoyment of PvP for me.

 

Honestly i used to get PK'd all the time, i was so furious and i too almost quit playing my game because of it, at that point i didnt have anything good anyways and was just killed because i could be easily, but when i finally fought back it was then i realized i could make a difference if even slightly, and i started enjoying the rush of the chase, but one rule we always had was "dont bring stuff you cant replace" be good at killing not because of a superpowered weapon but skill and knowledge alone! In UO i was blue when i followed my killer out of town and killed him! Knowledge is the best weapon, so if anything the hardest thing about all this with this game is tht they are saying you can only run one toon, (back to the drawing board to plot out a new way to bring Justice, jury and execution)

 

Well. I am not sure there is anything I can do to change someone's mind which is clearly already made up, so I wont even try.

I will ask though, what you and "many others" want for a combat system. If WoW is dumb, and SotA is dumber, what is it going to take to get you guys to like a combat system?

You did say you "dont think this is the best we can do." I am not sure who we is, did you have a specific group of people in mind when you say we, or is it just the haters of the Defiance system? If there is a group of you, can't you knock up a combat system in Unity or something and present it to the devs in order to educate them what they are doing wrong?

 

Player agency. This is a game about being immersive and including incredible detail in crafting my house, my armor, my path through the story, my conversations, my virtuousness, etc. But suddenly in combat, one of the largest things in the game, that selling point is paired down and made to be something where we get a subset of a subset of our skills for use. Instead of more options, we get less and are told "Versitility!!!"

I'm up for limits that I have to work against. If you want to put 18 hurdles between me and casting fireball, let me know what they are. I'll decide if they're worth jumping. Reagents? Words of power? Moon Phases? Acceptable. It's a system I can learn and try to work within. I can learn it, and it comes down to what I do as a player to see if I succeed or fail. This is the interface just putting a total wall between me and playing my character and we're being told that's innovative and fun. It isn't something I can actually get better at playing... only planning. And we'll spend more time playing the combat, than planning the combat.

Because here's the thing, bad planning is guaranteed to have me fail at combat. Good planning gives me a chance, but I could still lose a battle I could have won through skill, just because of random luck. That will never be fun to sit there and watch yourself lose when logically, you should have saved your heal for the end, and not had it show up first, and your fireball first, not once you've cleared the room of 90% of the enemies.

I actually have posted both here, and in the Dev+ forums, alternatives to the presented system...

https://shroudoftheavatar.com/forum...sed-card-combat-system.3565/page-3#post-64248

as have several other people.

https://shroudoftheavatar.com/forum...on-random-only-at-the-correct-situation.3672/
[too late to look for others, just use the search]

Not all of us have time to write a game's combat system, and then code it in, but I'm sure some of us are out there doing just that.

As for who 'we' are, I do mean the community in general. Even those who are OK with it, or waiting to see, it's simply a question of "do you think this is the best system that can be presented?" It doesn't mean that we default to WoW as our only other option, and a lot of us are having the fight now, and trying to get another system accepted because they've scheduled time to walk it back to WoW, but we'd like something else too. We want there to be a plan 'B' that isn't wow, but isn't this.

We just want something better that doesn't start cutting us off from the skills and powers we earned for the sake of being different. Which doesn't say "Press a key to continue" and then say it's interactive because it randomizes the key.

By reducing the way we can interact with combat, we reduce the interactivity within the game. There are limits to our interactivity, but somewhere between "We'll decide what you can do ranodomly" and "Here's a kinekt and a sword, figure it out" there's a better medium.

Lets accept that we're all here to make a good game, and to stop treating the people who are concerned, worried, or don't like the system (or down right hate it), as people who are immature, or get pidgeon holed as wanting the same old, same old. I'm the first to rail against making this a WoW clone, but that doesn't mean that just anything else is better. It's important to think about how this will work, and not just be happy that it's different.

 

IMHO the combat system will not be as random as some people anticipate here.

 

My revamp suggestion:

Focus is a warm up count that makes moves and spells the require more focus take more time to prepare. When you do something, you spend the focus, and you have to wait for it to build up again. Hits, wounds, fear, being hungry, tiered, moving, targeting or other things could all affect the speed of the build up adding a layer to fighting while keeping the mechanics familiar enough for anyone to pick up and play without feeling overwhelmed. It also keeps player agency intact, and doesn't force them into the skill lotery.​

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If a player wants to fire off one skill at a time, they can. But it will be more rewarding to let enough focus build up to fire off several skills rapid fire, but risky because you're not using your skills against your opponent hoping for a big pay off later.​

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Focus gains and costs could be tied to virtues as well, creating another dynamic to both virtues and fighting.​

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Bonus system:​

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Add agression and make it a counter virtue system. Where different things like getting hit actually add to your agression/rage/whatever but holding still, might lower it. It would have rate of gain and cost of maneuvers tied to virtues as well, but be stronger for those who are actively working against them.​

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Example:​

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An ogre that uses agression would get angrier as people just picked away at it, and only add to it's fury faster leading it to powerful attacks. Instead, using hit and run tactics with big hits and let it cool down would be the way to fight an ogre. On the other hand, a creature that uses focus could be completely undone by small weak attacks as they keep their focus distracted, and they never really get enough for their power attack.​

The point is there are, have been, and will be other suggestions.

But here's the thing, just because not everyone can think of a solution, doesn't mean they shouldn't point out their problems or concerns, and they have just as much right to voice that in the forums as you have to voice your support. While we can't talk about some of the specifics from the Dev+ forums, we can talk about the things that have been stated publicly, and it should be enough to give you some concern that this might not be the best way to run a real time, open world, combat system.

And not everyone against it is in the dev forums either. Where would you like them to go to voice their concerns about this game?

The dev team has been very open in wanting us to contribute early and often. They're not going to listen to us all, but if there's enough back lash, or a well presented idea that is an improvement, they've shown they're more than willing to listen. None of us threw their money at this because they want it to fail, or because they don't believe in the team... but that doesn't mean anyone needs to have blind trust. It's ok to rail on something that's not what you want, in fact it's the only way to fix it. Once the game was released they're not going to say "Oh, you're right, lets fix that now" they're going to say "we had forums up for almost 2 years before realease... where were you then?"

The difference between our two approaches, is that I'm debating the system, you're debating other users. And just get used to the fear, hate, whatever for a while. Until it hits Alpha and we can see what they've come up with, we have a lot of questions and can't see this going well. We want to inform you of the problem areas and hope that even if we can't see a solution, maybe one of you can. We'll only get that by talking about it.

Anyway, this all started because you made the comment that it was WoW or cards... hopefully at this point, you can see that's not true.

 

Well, I have still yet to see a more interesting idea than what they have come up with. Until people can put one forward, they should probably try to come up with something interesting and just push away the foaming at the keyboard routine.

 

the most important thing when we debate an issue is to remember we aren't enemies here... we are all one community that sees the game from a different perspective. Let's keep this in mind.

I personally have no problem with the card system, and from the beginning liked the idea. The part that bothers me is the random component, and how will it govern spells. For pure warriors the random component may not be that big of a deal in the long run.

Maybe it would simulate combat in the sense you can't always use your favorite combo in every situation because the other guy has his shield raised a certain way etc. etc.

However with magic I'm hoping that a mage can learn most if not all of the schools of magic, and that would give them maybe 45 to 65 or maybe more spells. It's hard to have that many spells and stack the deck. Maybe my idea of fun is to cast some combat spells a heal then a teleport and an invisibilty spell to avoid conflict. However I might need something else. With all those spells/skills (not to mention the armor skills) it will be hard to stack the deck to have something predictable come up. I would have to limit my casting to only a few spells and that's it.

So for spell casting I would like to see a more traditional method. I also hope that rather than putting skill points into each spell that they allow us to just put skill points into the base skills in the school of magic to earn levels of all the spells. That way it would be easier for a person to make a paladin, or a ranger without spending massive skill points. Also it makes it possible for somebody to become an arch-mage mastering most or all of the schools of magic while spending just a bit more than the average warrior would on all of his weapon and armor skills.

If those things are met, then I have no more issues with the card system.

Edit:
I would be interested in being able to create our own spell combiniation cards. That way for combat we can cast a few spells as one card. That migh free up space for our heal spells and armor skills.

It could also be a mix and match learning curve because some spells might not fire off together in a combo as well as others. There might be delays between the first spell and the second, so trying to find spells that work well together might be a fun component of creating our own combos.

 

@Isaiah MGT470

Can I ask what parts of the card system you like if you don't like the random part of it? I feel like that's the defining feature of the card system.

The system as it's been explained so far:

You have x # of skills that you earned through level advancement.

You pick some fraction of those skills to put in your bag/deck. Numbers aren't spelled out, but the lower your count the more likely your favorite will show back up in the draw.

Some of your skills (a small fraction of those you've made available) randomly appear at the start of the combat round, and are replaced randomly either over time or as you use them. Within that bag may be slugs/void cards that appear because of armor or weapons you're using.

The problem with throwing it out for spells, is that you then have non magical combat be unreliable, whith magical combat being something you can control. Why would you ever take your chance with the chaotic randomizer when the other option gives you a better chance of an encounter going your way?

That said, I agree with the issues you raise about magic being too limited if we decide to tie mages down spell wise.

I do like the idea of combo cards. And if forced to deal with this system that could mittigate some of the chance you'll end up with nothing you can do.

Would still rather see something else.

 

I like the idea that our skills can become visible and not clutter our screen with UI. However I wish it could give us relevant decisions to the moment at hand. Say the guy you are fighting is low on health and your killing blows become available. Also I would like it if it could learn from our previous choises to determine what is relevant to us at a given time. So it could become a system that grows with you.

However I will be okay with it as long as it doesn't govern spells. I can handle random for the warrior. that's acceptable, but if you have 40 to 60 spells theres no way to really stack the deck to make sure the spell you need will show up. So for the sake of spell casting I would like a mix of the new system and a more traditional system with macros and icons on the desktop for spells.

I hope that helps you understand where I'm coming from.

 

I worry that a desire for a streamlined UI may be getting mixed in with actual game-play mechanics. Those are seperate things, and saying "I like the new system" is not the same as saying "I like the interface". I like the interface as well... but that's not the same as sying I like how combat is handled.

I do get where you're comming from though. And several games have pop up icons that show up in a given situation, like when you parry, have the enemy reduced to low health, etc. It's worked just fine there, and can work here as a plan "B".

As for the other part, the problem with a learned mechanic system is you have to be able to teach the system to do something, which means it either has to be programmed manually by you, or you have to be able to do it in a situation first (which might never happen) to learn what you want.

And again, it takes out the randomness, which leaves me asking: why bother? If you strip the random element out... what's left of this system?

 

I would be willing to compromise. Keep the random element for weapon and armor skills, but allow for spells to be cast apart from the system. This way you could cast any spell as you need it.

Then it also keeps the random element in tact for the weapon and armor skills, and maybe some random spell combination cards in the mix.

In fact this is probably the easiest compromise to implement.

When UO came out with it's first super moves for two handed weapons they came randomly (Post Trammel).

• Two handed sword weapons did a concussion blow which did a little extra damage and it caused the person's Intelligence to be reduced by half for a period of time.
• Two handed Mace weapons did a crushing blow which did double damage (well almost they had to scale that back if I remember correctly).
• Two handed fencing weapons (spears) could cause a stunning blow, which stunned the opponent for a time.

Those special moves just happened randomly. That worked fine for me back then. I think random skills won't really ruin the warrior classes because they still have their basic auto attack, but I believe mages will suffer the most from a completely random system.

A mage in SotA should not be able to kill an experienced character with one spell unless the person is really hurt first. That means an opponent has time to use a healing potion or device before you get your next spell off!!!! That's a problem because a mage doesn't have a basic auto attack, everything he does is with mana or focus.

So let mages cast their spells at will, but use the skill bar for preconfigured combat combinations. So individual spells can be cast to heal people etc. However there could be heal combos too... let those be on the skill bar too so a mage can cast a heal and a heal over time in one combo, and same with the attack combos with a chain lighting and a fireball spell or something.

 

To Me, Isaiah..The Combat Is Bad For Everyone..Not Just Mages. Sure, SpellCasters Will Probably Have More Spells Than Other Classes Have Abilities..But Its Still fundamentally Flawed For All. You Can't Cast What You Want. I Can't Stealth When I Want. The Game Will Decide When You Can Do Something. You're No Longer Playing The Game. The Game Is Playing You.

 

It's the difference between a player fighting, and the game letting them push buttons to see the fight continue. It may not hurt the fighter any more than UO days where they were just passive effects that happened when conditions were right, but the goal (Supposedly) is to get the players more involved in combat and not just standing toe to toe, or clicking 123123123.

In this one, you'll be expected to press a button to try for the special "Concussion Blow". Why bother if the game is going to tell me when it's possible anyway? What does it need me for? If it's possible, just do it. Why wouldn't I want you to do it? If spells and items are handled classicly, this is time spent creating a game system that adds nothing to the game?

And that's part of the problem too. It's why I ask not "Can we live with it?" but "Is it the best we can do?" If development time is going to be spent on a system then perhaps it should be for a system that improves on UO, and isn't going to leave us with the same feelings, more button pushing, but no more enjoyment.

 

I didn't think of stealth. That's another example of where it needs to have an allowance to use macro keys or icons. If the system sticks to just managing the combat skills, and the defensive skills, then for the rest of our skills we should be able to use them whenever we want. Otherwise scrap the whole system. I was just trying to compromise.

 

You're not alone. That's my concern as well.

 

I'm so sorry that we've failed to entertain you, I wasn't aware that was the purpose of this thread.