Population Concerns

The fact that the deck system is so robust that it takes time to fully understand and optimize it for your build = a good thing

Most people comb forums of games for tips and FAQs. Dunno how much of that could be crammed into an ingame tutorial

YT has some too, for better visual reference.

 

Given that those titles (or at least their sequels) are widely considered to have some of the best controls of their day, I'd say that your tastes are rather rare and not indicative of the general gaming community's preferences.

 

Spot on. Something like combat shouldn't be so esoteric and weird that the first reaction for many is, "OMFG, what is this rubbish?!?" Come on, honestly, it shouldn't be, folks.

When people "have to get used" to a system, or take some sort of perverse pleasure (in some cases), of mastering something that other people absolutely hate... it's not a good system.

Smart MMO design is, at this point in the genre, to have low barriers to entry when it comes to the stuff common to all titles. Combat is part of that. Crafting is part of that. Quests are part of that.

What makes a game stand out in today's market is its storyline, degree of open-world feel, community tools; stuff that let's people really get into the game and immerse themselves, not learn a new interface.

SotA design, meanwhile, seems to revel in saying, "How does everyone else do it? Right... we'll do the opposite, and make it quite obscure, too..." It's the most hipster MMO out there, now I think on it.

 

The only thing i really agree with you is that the deck system is harder to learn then it has to be. Everyone ive brought into the game doesnt mind the combat system, likes the fact you can do w.e with w.e and the variety. That being said, it does require explination when it comes to stacking, and building decks with the actual DRAW system once you move past the set hotbars. Im not sure how they could really make it easier, other then having a built in tutorial when you open the deck menue or something, or a link to a video explaining it in a little more detail. Pretty simple fixes.

I love that it adds some randomness to each fight.
The fact that they are still adding skills and tweaks, making it wider and wider.. is awesome. they added what? 4 skills this patch?
Once decay is in, and if they keep elaborating. Every persons build will actually have uniqueness.
And i cant see going back to a copy paste, heres your class heres your 5 buttons. enjoy. Kind of game after this.

 

Even in defending the system, you hit the nail squarely on the head. Yes, it's esoteric and weird enough that it needs people to really explain it to others. It needs a proper tutorial. Yes, such a thing is easy.

So... where is it? That sort of sums up a lot of SotA's development in a nutshell. Things that should be there, nailed down from the start, just aren't there. The game's persistent, and many don't even understand the combat.

Is that good design? I say it's not. I know that upsets people who love the game, or people freaking out about how few people they see playing it, etc, but that's the only way I can describe it. For me, I'm just being honest.

 

A couple points about how I feel personally.

1. I have very little sense of a feeling of accomplishment. Skill system is easy and unrewarding. There are not any real thresholds in the game yet and tbh it does not sound like they are going this route other than from a mimimalist stand point 40 skill to unlock etc. Where are the 75 80 85 90 requurements, but even with that it takes a day or two hit the 80s.

2. Between my massive friends list and my huge guild list (300ish) I see 20 or 30 on at a time, it breaks my heart tbh.

3. Many people I know personally that ive convinced to buy in constantly ask me when are they gonna put fun into the game. I feel really bad they invested money in something they dont wanna play. ;(

 

And i feel that altho the tutorial is lacking, doesnt mean the design of the system is bad. So instead of * the combat system is a failure * , this post should be under suggestions reinforcing the point that something needed is better starting tutorial about the deck.
This is alpha. They are looking for this input.

(Next post )
Sorry that people your bringing in feel that way? Im hsving the exact opposite reaction.

 

We're talking two different things now. I think the design of the system is bad from the POV that being esoteric and weird and going against the grain of basically every other MMO is a mistake in today's market.

As I said earlier, smart MMO design, at this point in the genre, is to have low barriers to entry when it comes to the stuff common to all titles. Combat is part of that. Crafting is part of that. Quests are part of that.

What makes a game stand out in today's market is its storyline, degree of open-world feel, community tools; stuff that lets people really get into the game and immerse themselves -- it's not having to learn a weird interface.

The fact that a tutorial is needed so that the average gamer, even someone already au fait with MMOs, knows what the heck's going on in combat without having to ask people IRL (a huge fail), is a cherry on top of the mess.

 

But this game is not targeted at the average MMO player, it is targeted at the niche market that wants some niche gameplay specifically where things are not the same as every other game.

Even if the game captures all of the old UO players and none of the Ultima Players and none of current day MMO players, it can still be a success.

 

I think its mistake to say this either has to be a niche game or, if we want to be mainstream, it has to model itself after a generic MMO.

Bottom line is that people want to play good games.

But they won't know everything that's out there or might be tepid about getting into something. What you need to do is build a fan-base of players who love the game and go out and evangelize about how great it is. Then, word of mouth, in addition to whatever company-driven advertising efforts there are, will draw more people into the game, and build the community. In this case, it should be easy: the natural fan-base should be people who pledged for the Kickstarter campaign -- the Ultima fans, and the UO fans, who would be naturally interested in this game. If they're upset, you have a problem.

And if you're talking about UI problems, tutorial problems, player orientation problems etc., those are things that the devs need to tackle regardless of who the audience is. It doesn't matter what average MMO players are like, or average SP players are like, or what Ultima players are like; its important that getting into the game is as intuitive as possible.

But, at any rate, it isn't really the subject in the OP. The main issue raised in the OP isn't getting new players to learn the interface, but the fact that a lot of players who own the game, and know it, and know the mechanics and know the interface, and don't have to learn it, aren't playing.

 

I see lots of critisism being hurled at a game that isn't even finished yet. Yes, there are lots of issues that need to be addressed, but for being in Alpha this game is looking and feeling great to me. The idea that they should follow industry standards and norms, to me at least, sounds like a great way to make a mediocre and boring game. Nearly ever game I've played in the past has had something about it that wasn't just like every other game. If you are just looking to draw a bunch of people in for a few weeks(make your money and run), then I suppose following industry standards is the way to go. If you are looking for longevity, however, you want to take your time and make the game unique.

For me, this game has a lot to offer an old-school UO player. Yes, there are things that could be better, things that need tweaking, manuals to be written, balancing of the economy/combat/spells, but these are the sort of things that always get ironed out in Alpha. I don't know why this is such an issue for people. When I bought this game I knew that it wasn't completed, but I also knew that it wasn't a complete wreck and unplayable. I am glad that this game, like UO, hasn't catered to the mainstream gaming market. I don't want a game where they tell me every little detail about the game, dumb it down so that more people will play, or follow some strict UI design guidelines so that players who refuse to learn anything new will play.

I think maybe this game just isn't for everyone. This is a game that I would be happy to play by myself. Having more people playing is just icing on the cake. That being said, I'm not a very social player. I don't do the guild thing, but I do, from time to time, enjoy hunting with others. As I said earlier, I believe more people will join the game as it gets more refined. All the UO players I know are willing to learn new things, just as they had to do with the original UO(which also didn't explain everthing about crafting, fighting,etc. in its manual.) UO, to me, was about exploring, tinkering and figuring out things on my own. The population will either increase or not. It's a wait and see thing at this point. But, in the end, it's to each their own.

 

First; they haven't used the term Alpha in a long time. They have pushed off release dates, with the most recent push-off being Winter-ish 2016. This tells me they really, really, really want to get to the official 'launch' soon and that's not what you do if you're in alpha.

Second; Industry standards and norms came about for a reason. They're the tried-and-true mechanisms for the lowest common denominator. People understand them and people have fun with them. You can read that as dumbing things down, or you could read it as keeping the largest pool of players as possible. SotA isn't a subscription game. It relies on the nickle-and-diming (and quartering-and-silver-dollaring) but if it's coming from a niche pool, you're going to squeeze them all dry.

You need things to be welcoming enough to pull new people in to bolster your active players. Industry standards is one way to do that. People jump in and can figure stuff out on their own because they have a familiar base. You can build upon those familiar mechanism to create that uniqueness.

Hindsight is 20/20. This game should probably be a Neverwinter Nights/Dungeon Siege type game where you are a single player going through a storyline and can bring in friends to adventure together. The strength of the game should really be the Garriott/Hickman duo writing the story. Instead, RG is trying to make an MMO with some old-school ideas, but there is a reason why they're considered old-school. Either way, I'm along for the ride probably as long as my adventuring buddies are still playing.

 

Do we also have to consider bots that are added to the population?

 

Ahh, you mean those bots joining the forum that they used to proclaim how interested people were in the game, but then we lost the 'forum user list' because it was called out?

 

only if you're expecting us to take your like bots into account

 

This bothers you, doesn't it
But those are all real likes. People like me a lot

 

Good thing it's an MMO and not a popularity contest then
Equally good thing for you that moderators have that backwards

 

MMO's are popularity contests. Thats all shroud is at this point. A beauty pageant full of decoration contests lol.

 

Math!

 

That's the underlying tension of this kind of open development / open alpha. From an IT project point of view a polished tutorial is the last thing you would want to work on as changes to the game mean constantly reviewing and reworking it. But now that the game is persistent there's an expectation of it being more complete. At the same time there's people maxing out skills and getting bored. They have a lot of different expectations to try and meet.