Thoughts to stimulate the economy

Hi,

I did never say nor mean that "more crafting" breaks the economy. But if everyone can basicly produce most things by himselfs, i.e. everyone can become a crafter without an tradeoff, there will not much trading be going on. I would favor one account per person and enforce skill diversity. So a designated fighter char would need to buy from a designated crafter char. There must be trade-offs. No incentive for crafters if everyone can craft up to a certain level (withut trade-off).

With full-loot you would create a kind of resource drain and at the same time could stimulate trade. But full-loot opposes the paradigm of player fun (at least for most players) too much so it doesnt seem to be viable.

// Armar

 

Well can be pvp be a core mechanism for a working economy? Of course. Should it be for sota? No it shouldn't. For different reasons, non of them economic.
But pvp still can support the economy.

The real topic we have to discuss is the fact that everybody can build everything and item breakage. Those are the two main factors I see at the moment. The rest is just bonus.

 

If people do not have coin, they cannot buy. Many people cannot make everything, only a few people can. I make TONS of stuff for other people cuz they cannot make it themselves, I just give it to them cuz they cannot afford to buy it either. The reason no one is buying your stuff is because they do not have the coin. If people had tons of coin, and your stuff was cheap and good, they would buy it. Not everyone is willing to invest the time it takes to get the producer exp to level all the skills needed to craft top end stuff. I imagine the first person to get enchanting to level 160+ is going to have a ton of business provided it does not cost much for the service.

I did not say crafting breaks the economy, I asked how crafting breaks generate economy or coin, as in how does furniture wearing out and needing to be replaced generate coin and the economy, which is something you did mention.

It does not matter how much stuff you make, if the people have no money, they cannot buy it. Just look at the great depression, items still on the shelves, resources to make new stuff was still available, yet people were not buying stuff, why? Because they had no money. Making stuff does not generate money, selling stuff does not generate money, people with jobs getting paid generates money. The economy has 3 systems that are required to keep it going, employees to work and get paid, employers who hire the employees and pay them, and consumers to buy the products that are being made. In the game, the employer is the game itself, the employees are people who farm coin, they are also the consumers. Right now, the game does not put that much coin in. Some mages can hardly even afford the cost of regs and the repairing of gear. New players cannot make coin very fast and cannot afford to buy the gear for sale, nor do they have the skills to make it themselves.

I am sorry your stuff is not selling, but this does not mean there is not a demand for it because everyone in the game is making their own stuff. If you only knew the amount of gear that is out there with my name on it because I give it to them for free. They would buy it if they could afford it, they just can't, and that is the main point. I don't know if you have talked to many people about the taxes on lot deeds, but I know some people that used a taxed town lot deed and went broke because they are a casual player and could not afford the taxes. Its not a question of stuff, its a question of how much coin is in the game. Do you understand?

 

hard to say for me as we are still seeing the base systems being worked on and reworked.

masterworking is being refactored at the moment and i am sure there are a few more that are also.

once the base systems are worked out where port and players are mostly happy we will begin to see the upper limits of skills being pushed.

once you need to reach 150+ to make something there will be a very small pool of players that are actually able to do it an will require focusing on said skill for a decent amount of time.

but we will see

 

Ah but is it really that way?
Or is stuff just too expensive?
This may look like semantics but it is an important difference.

 

Good Posting,

If anyone can aquire crafting skills without any trade-off this sure will break the economy. Economy as we know it is heavily depending on specialisation. One bakes bread, the other makes swords, the third one makes potions. etc. You enable everyone to do everything, up to a certain point, you are ruining economy.

Correct. I coulnt afford anything in the vendors as 30 hour playtime n00b.

Smaller houses? This game doesnt seem have enough resource drains, removing one more seems to be a bad idea to support economy. Maybe tune down tax during Alpha/Beta until the economy hopefully comes up with more people joining it. And i dont see why everyone and their brother must own a palace in this game anyhow...

Yes, i do So why do you think its that unbalanced? Or maybe the creation/resource costs are too high? You could sell at a lower price...

// Armar

 

If you want the economy to improve, if you want things to start selling, you need more people earning coin, or more coin being earned per person. When people were looting chests in vertas pass, things started to sell again. Now they nerfed the chests, and no one loots them no more. Just a while after persistence, they nerfed mob drops. Many mobs now carry shoddy stuff, the durability on the drops was reduced greatly, and that reduced the coin they were worth. They increased the reg cost on spells like chain lighting, they increased the tax rates on deeds. If I don't use a potion of conservation, I can hardly support my reg cost. To a casual player, using the conservation pot and only getting 10 hours of use of the week it lasts does not seem worth it to them. Without the pot of conservation, I can blow 30k a day on regs.

If you look at the price of gear, compared to the price of mats, its not even worth selling the gear. Just the other day I bought carapacian pants with +8 int on them for 5000 coin. If we do the math on this, just in beetles alone ( 14 beetles) at 400 a pop, its 5600 in beetles and he used a leather strap instead of the carapacian one. Then the price of the gold used, the silver used, the chance of breakage or not getting the stats wanted to get +8 int. Those pants were probably worth 30k+, but because most players do not have much coin, the price kept dropping.

I don't know if you played before persistence but beetles were worth 5000 coin a pop back then, and people still bought them. It was much easier to earn coin then. Longbows with high durability dropped often, taxes were cheap, npc merchants gave more. It was easy to go run around in greymark and kill the elves who carried 2 swords and sell it to the blacksmith in owls head and earn 15k+ an hour. They took away the elves carrying 2 swords in greymark as well now. Tbey also made it harder for new players to gather resources by increasing the difficulty in some of the mines, and slowing down the spawn time of node. There is even talk of slowing the nodes down even more now.

I don't know if you read some of the post by the devs as to why they nerfed these things, but they were saying it was due to 1% of the players have 90% of all the wealth. BUT, by making these changes it hurt everyone's ability to grind coin, not just that top 1%. Many of that top 1% were selling pledge items worth a lot of coin, they were not grinding for it anyways. They want to slow down the top players but the ways they do it hurts all the lower players. Look at all the control point nerfs recently.

 

Seriously, this is important. Why do you think there isn't enough gold in the economy and not that stuff is just far too expensive?

 

There not not enough gold for the casual player, they cant afford taxes and regs, stuff IS to expensive to them, they cannot afford it. Now answer my question that i asked long ago. How does having stuff breaking more, and full loots on pvp death stimulate the economy? This has been the main point of my posts in response to the op.

 

Yeah but i am not the OP
So it's not up to me to answer that question.
Though i have a opinion towards it of course. But i guess you expected that ;-)

 

So why are you answering my response to the op with questions not pertaining to the op?

 

It's connected to topic at hand.
Because i would like to know if there really isn't enough money in the economy or if it is just a subjective feeling of several players because the prices are too high. If it's the first, Port would have to print more money. If it's the second it might sort itself.
But i am not the one you directed your questions at. I am not the one that said: full loot will help.
So i can't answer your question.
Non the less you demanded from me to answer your question ^^

 

Ok, well I answered your questions, are you satisfied with the answers? You demanded me to answer your questions as well, just though I would return the favor.

 

You are so kind!
And yes i am, thanks.
I am now aware that it's possibly a mix of both.
On the one side, items are still priced too expensive.
On the other side, there seems to be not enough gold in the system. Your example with the reagents and the rent are two striking examples for that.
I agree that we need more gold. Not much more, because that would blow the prices out of propotion again, but enough that players can handle the fix costs without playing 3 hrs a day 7 days a week.
And i absolutley think a Row Lot deed is something every casual player should be able to finance.

So, now, your questions.
Why stuff breaking will stimulate the economy.
If everything we produce stays ingame forever the market will be saturated at some point.
If my bow lasts forever i won't buy a new one.
That's, in short, why items need to break if you want a real economy.

I am no fan of full loot so i am not going to defend this part of the OPs idea.

 

I never would buy a chair again from this crafter if it breaks after 500 sit ins

It's ok for armor and weapons, but nothing else!

YES!!!
Let's say you can choose from 4 of 9 Magic Schools
3 armor and weapon skill trees and 3 harvesting and 3 crafting proficencys .

 

Just for input, i have problems to make everything for myself , takes a lot of time and gold I don't have.
I am just doing some food and scrolls and grow some reagents, but nothing else.
I ask for furniture, armor and weapons and buying this and let people repair it if necessary.

 

The only intelligent argument to make items have value but that ship sailed ages ago.

The developers where told over and over that item have to have a limited life span and went abut and deliberately made CotOs that could repair items up to max.

They are now back peddling working on making things have a life but the major damage is already done.

Also they completely missed the mark on Rare materials and items. All can be made, all has been made and easily by anyone.

The damage is done.

The only way to fix it is reset it and no one has the balls to do it.

 

The damage is easy to repair.
Welcome to a beta test.
Stuff like that happens if you try to build a working economy.
Seriously did you expect them to come up with an instant working concept from day 1 for a topic like this!?
The basics are there. Items break, CotOs got a dimishing return.
The rest is finetuning between item breakage and influx of gold into the game.

 

Mac, Pickpocketing will generate tons of gold if you seek out the afk pvpers.

 

So we are looking at a deflation and people try to stick to their old resale rates?