Feeback from a (former) loyal customer

Sir Cabirus... I had nothing but the deepest desire for the longest time that the SP lovers get what they expected. I was for the longest time an ardent supporter... Several things have happened over the course of the last several years, instigated by those same SP Lovers that I supported, a couple of which are things that I've mentioned in this or other posts today haven't turned me against the SP lovers, but moved me to not care one way or another anymore...

Namely:

• Constant and unrelenting posts repeating the same misguided arguments and defenses of those arguments that DarkStarr pointed out earlier today.
• Sky Castles built on Fantasy Expectations of what the Single Player Experience must be exactly like, or it was somehow a complete failure and a breech of trust.
• Attacks on the Development Team accusing them of not listening or caring about the Single Player game, including accusations of wrong doing accompanying them.

As I also said in another post today, it's often the Method not the Message, and this is a prime example.

I'm not able to name names by forum rules, but please know that I don't number you among those that lead me to abandon my advocacy for a piece of the game that never held any appeal to me.

 

Sending PM to DEV teams stating your grievances or email to support = useful feedback
Repeatedly posting negative postings in a public discussion forum hoping others agreed with you? Is this really feedback? Especially when done in other forums like Reddit etc.
Why post it in General Discussion?

I agree with @2112Starman, send it to the Devs. Leave the rest of us out of it.

 

What is with everyone acting like Moderators or port employees telling people what to do? If you think people are acting badly use the report button right? If you do not like what they are saying use the ignore feature. Its this overbearing grandiose lecturing as if one is superior to another that drives people away. Maybe one could message the person they find negative and talk to them in a pm and ask why they are that way? There are other solutions than lashing out because you simply cannot handle what they have to say.

 

Yes, posts like @Corv and from many others are/were often constructive feedback and call for change/comment. If you're not interested in reading negative & constructive feedback, just skip the thread. Others might do the same and skip positive feedback on the obsidian trials, dance parties or whatever feature is of little interest to them.

I'll quote Starr Long who just stated that critical feedback has it's place here:

So, yes - this feedback has its place. Thank you.

 

That's what happens when you post something in a public forum. Freedom of speech, does not mean freedom from consequences of your speech.

 

there are rules in a private forums such as this so "freedom of speech" is not applicable here. You can be moderated. You have to pay at least 5 dollars to post here so it is not public. Also it is not your place to speak for Portalarium, they should try to do that for themselves. I cannot speak for you, you cannot speak for me, why do you think you can speak for port?

 

Yes and there are FEEDBACK threads... General Discussion is for DISCUSSION. It's easy to skip a feedback thread... it's a little harder when nonsense is continuously in your face in the WRONG place for it. THANK you.

 

I always thought that it was possible to have a rich Single Player experience in any MMO/Multiplayer game, including with SotA, mostly thanks to the "selective" thing. Maybe I was a fool to believe this, but in absolute terms, I still think that it's widely feasible and sincerely, there are already some games which do that pretty well, like Divinity for the coop side of the scope and ESO or maybe SWTOR for the MMO side of the scope. But with the current state of SotA, its budget, and after all the lays off, I definitely don't see anything like that coming for this game anymore. Only the multiplayer part will survive (if the game survives at all) and will need a LOT of work in order to keep a balanced game out of the "go grind to UT tonight ?" thing.

Now, when @Lord_Darkmoon ranted at the state of the single experience many many months ago, I was honestly thinking that he was annoying (sorry, but I prefer to say those things honestly). He repeatedly pointed at the flaws (some of which most of us already agreed with), but I was convinced he was pessimistic. After all, it has been many months since the devs *already* said that they were working on the journal and quest issues, and Lum also said somewhere that they were working on some new technology, in order to "hide" NPCs which were supposed to be dead (like the one in Ardoris with the Path of Love). I believed in them. I thought that everything would be fixed for the release. Now here we are. Not only the status of the single player part is still widely unsatisfactory despite what was announced, including the new user experience improvements, but they have far fewer people to correct it, now.

Spoiler: Spoiler

And there is more serious : while the new objects offered during the telethons pile up without any real coherence with the lore, Novia no longer offers any impression of immersion. Is @Lord British the King? Why does almost no NPC ever mention it, except for his wife ? How are the governors appointed in each city ? While we have to speak with those during some quests, why aren't we involved into some politic plots ? Why is Aerie the city of Truth and Ardoris the city of Love ? What brought those to the virtues ? Where do the cabalists come from ? How are they able to fight in multiple locations at the same time ? Why do every avatar get the same artifacts from the Titans and the Oracle ? Why, while the Oracle told me that every avatar was fighting for his or her own destiny, do we ALL save the same titans in the same plots ? Why some guard can teleport to me from nowhere when I do something wrong, when the others just patrol without any purpose in front of me ? There is so much to tell here...

I understand that the game needs funds to grow and so I understand why several choices had to be made (the preference for the MMO part included, or even the Unity assets thing as long as the store would have mentionned the name of the real creator), but I think it has been forgotten that the game needs much more players to get the funds, not the same satisfied players saying that everything is fine when it's obvious that it's not. The release should have been the moment where investors/donators/bakers (whatever the name you want to use) were not needed anymore and where customers would have taken over. But no, definitely not.

 

General Discussions - as the name states - is for discussing general topics concerning the game. Which we did. To my knowledge all Feedback boards are linked to the current release and used to provide release specific feedback.
As such, I believe, the posts were in the correct board. Ultimately, threads were not moved to another board which is a strong indicator that the moderators feel similar.

 

Again... you see the discussion has turned into a "you should listen to any criticism, no matter how it's presented, because I'm entitled to complain, bash, spread negativity anyway I want, no matter how harsh, how inflammatory or whether I attack the community, the devs/staff, or the game itself because it's my right to do so" yadda yaddda yadda... and by the same general people. Especially the ones who like to stir up trouble (see their posts off-site about this game) and how they rile up their echo chambers there to see what they've done on these forums and to attack the game and it's player base.

There are a lot of people who have legitimate complaints. Most of them can put it in a format that is fine for theses forums, technically any forum. That's fine. Most of us here can accept that. However, it's these few though that like to stir up trouble and get those with an inkling of shared complaints riled up on it as well... using that thread to instigate stuff and make these kinds of continued posts, which is just baiting the community and the devs/staff of SotA. Most can see through this, though some may be seeing these things for the first time... it's not the first time. You can see their message histories, that haven't been deleted, and get the general "tone" of these disgruntled people... I'd say players, but most of them don't seem to have played anytime recently based on statements about the game.

Then to make matters worse, they throw out these complaints and if you try and say anything that counters it or shows that they ARE addressing these complaints somehow or show that they STILL are working on it.. every single month... they want to say, "You are drowning out criticism". No, we are fighting misinformation with actual facts. Facts that you *could* read for yourselves or actually see in game if you played or watched live streams.. *if you're so passionate* about the issues. But no. They don't want to hear it. They don't want to see it... and they most certainly don't want other players to believe they have not been grievously injured somehow by the SotA/Portalarium community. It's one big drama fest. They take an issue, any issue, and blow it out of proportions... it doesn't matter if they're working on that issue or if its already been fixed or changed... they will bring up stuff from THREE YEARS AGO about why they don't like the game and why it will never succeed and continue to lose money, players, yadda yadda yadda.

This isn't a dismissal of criticism... this is a dismissal of those trying to say their doing something constructive for the community by posting/voicing their complaints, when really its the same small group of people trying to do the same thing over and over, baiting, insulting, instigating stuff with inflammatory, snarky, cynical and derogatory remarks leveled at the devs, staff at SotA/Portalarium, and the gaming community of SotA. They post this stuff in a manner that DARES the staff to moderate them and then they get all on a high horse about how they were moderated, they shouldn't be moderated no matter how they presented their *entitled* posts, and then use that to fan the flames of discord on other game site forums by linking it and saying, "Look... look at what their doing to ALL criticism about the game! Loooook! I'm sooooo mistreated... look what they did to me!" and they just rile up the similar minded folk at those sites. It's just an orchestrated campaign of negativity... and some of you seem to fall for it hook, line, and sinker. Then when directed to it or have it pointed to you... you willfully choose to ignore it, like it's not happening and you'd rather not find out because it interferes with your belief that "this can't be right... this can't be happening... no one would do this" mentality.

So let's not pretend these continued types of posts by the same group of people are not designed to stir up trouble or dare the staff of SotA/Port to do something about it. It doesn't matter to this group how much information you bring to the table, showing that they HAVE been working on their complaints, that there is progression of what they view are faults, that things are moving along, that a lot of stuff pours into the game monthly, etc etc. They just don't care. They will still bring up the same points no matter what, from any time between 2012 and now... no matter how its changed... and they want others to believe their view no matter what as well. The only hope we have is to show the rest of the community what really is happening and what has gone forward to fix, change, correct, and address complaints. It's up to you, the player base, to make yourselves informed. The info is out there and presented all the time. It's up to the players to weed out the nonsense, the drama, the hypocrisy, and rationalize whether all the doom & gloom is as bad as they make it out to be. I know that here on the forums, only a very small percentage of the community will even see these posts, but it's up to those that do to help fight misinformation, be it here, in game, or off-site.

 

Brugas, I love your unfettered and unabashed enthusiasm for Shroud of the Avatar. It is obvious how much you love the game and vocally support it, which is great!

Unfortunately, your post is a dismissal and a generalization of "the same small group of people" who care just as much as you do about the game. I know, I know, you feel like they are being overly negative and nasty instead of being constructive. I'm sure "they" view you (and others) in the same manner, just on the opposite side of the spectrum. I cannot speak to other game sites, since I don't have Facebook, Twitter or a Reditt account, but I haven't seen any negative remarks here that are over the top. Snarky, maybe, but that is their prerogative because they are upset. Most likely they feel like their voices have fallen on deaf ears and now someone is listening. Give them a chance to vent their frustrations and raise their objections because a lot of them are valid points. Who knows, you might even be able to change their view!

I think they care a hell of lot more than you think. You think they are stirring up trouble, while I think they are stirring up debate. You cannot be so diametrically opposed that you refuse to at least listen to what they have to say. Otherwise, you are just as culpable as you purport them to be.

It would be easy for me to argue that you are doing the same. Yet I listen to what you say because you do provide good feedback on a lot of things. I might disagree with you on some things (like now ) but that is ok. I don't know about you, but I enjoy trying to understand different or opposing perspectives because I might learn something new!

 

There are a couple of things at work...

• There are a small group of people that operate from the premise that Portalarium is at it's core dishonest, and approach all issues from that mindset.
• There are also those people who for whatever reason deliver their critiques in a combative and confrontational manner.

In both cases, the Method masks the Message.

I would be happy to discus any issues with the second bullet point group if they change their method.
The first group I've personally no use for.

 

YOU were talking about a PERSON not the game. Can you seriously not see why that is a problem?

 

While I may understand where you're coming from and trying to do here with your post... by not looking at the evidence presented and then trying to say that they are not doing these things is deliberately ignoring the problem. You don't need an account to view these things by the way. Oh, and if you'd actually see these people posting elsewhere and just linking these threads and what they say about them... there would be no "thinking" that they are stirring up trouble. You'd know it. It's up to you and the community whether to follow through and see for yourselves, but please don't think this is misinformation if you're not willing to look at the information presented. I appreciate the general sentiment though, but it's not helpful in addressing the reoccurring problems presented in my post(s).

 

Well said Cordelayne. Much better than I would have.

 

Thanks Cordelayne for taking on this one. I think you are more than generous here.

 

Maybe I missed those posts, but I haven't noticed a "small group of people" (again with this phrase lol) stating that Portalarium is inherently dishonest.

As for your second point, an individual might view your responses in the same manner Rufus. It can be totally subjective. You and I might not agree on a lot but that doesn't mean I have no personal use for you. I know I can always rely on you to be the butt of my jokes, KIDDING!

I do know, with 100% certainty and without equivocation, that you and I are in agreement on one thing. That Shroud NEVER turn into UO. Specifically as it relates to an open world, PvP, full loot, free for all! No thank you!

 

Yeah but Rav, you're an idiot, undead, Lich, cannibal. No expects you to be loquacious. Kidding, you know I love you bro!

 

Very well said @Cordelayne. In actuality, projects do their best when there is a combination of both sides. I have been around a long time and I still have a lot of faith in the Portalarium team. One of the things that always made me sad is that people get labeled as "Sota haters" when in actuality they were passionate about various features that were in danger of being cut or negatively modified in their opinion. A lot of their feedback is quite useful. They weren't out to destroy Sota...they were out to help. What I think actually happened is they turned toxic because their voices were being silenced, by people who thought they were doing good and jumping to Shroud's defense, which started a downhill spiral. I think there is still some truth hidden in their complaints though. I'm glad @Corv started this thread to start these discussions. I have always liked Corv's posts, even his critical ones. Nothing gets refined or fixed if everyone treats everything as always sunny. I will say right now that I love Shroud of the Avatar and I don't think it is all doom and gloom, but I do think it's obviously having some difficulty and the next few months are going to be a major turning point, one way or the other. I honestly hope that everything works out. I'm still a believer in the final product and I really hope we get there.