Allow a third specialization in a Strategy tree

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Aetrion, Oct 10, 2019.

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  1. Adam Crow

    Adam Crow Avatar

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    All just general statements. Nothing to see here folks. Im going to stop beating my head against the wall because you just want to act like you're smarter then everyone else here.
     
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  2. Jezebel Caerndow

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    I guess healers and debuffers and ccers are pointless then, yet, somehow my air mage build that does crap all for damage makes the spider queen WAY easier with cc effects.
     
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  3. Dhanas

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    Now i understand what the problem is, you haven't understand at all how mmorpg works considering you are here claiming every character should do same dmg, it is not just a damage race, there is much more. Pls stop farming t5 zones that every decent player can solo easy and go try endgame content, where you will notice that pure dmg is not all. I always based my builds on sustain and not dmg and don't consider myself a newb and can take down content good for my build in a relateviley good time. If you wanna challenge me to duel you are welcome.
    I am done with this convo, you haven't read any of my post and you are repeating over and over something wrong without any argumentation.
     
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  4. Violet Ronso

    Violet Ronso Avatar

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    @Aetrion

    Buddy, I was on your side at the beginning of the thread, thinking this was a good Idea because I had always wanted an extra Specialization limited to Strategy skills.

    The reason why you lost my vote is that you have been throwing off the EXACT same argument, at multiple occasions, without backing yourself up with examples or proof. In the meantime your opponents in this debate have thrown out a multitude of arguments, some that made sense, others not really, but they still seemed to try to make the conversation progress, while you have stayed stuck in time.

    To list some examples of different builds my Guild has (and we are a small one) :
    Life + Sun Mage
    Fire + Blades Hybrid
    Life + Polearms Healer
    Ranged + Life Healer
    Life + Taming Healer
    Ranged + Light Armor Archet
    Polearms + Tactics warrior
    Moon + Subterfuge Assassin
    Water + Life Mage
    Heavy Armor + bludgeon Warrior

    That is the builds of guildmates I play with (and we rarely average more than 8 players at 1 time, and many others I dont know their specs)

    Also, none of us have the same build, and the only time that happens is when I try their builds to get Ideas (I respec once or twice per release to try new things lately). So everyone having the same build is a false statement at least for my guild.

    Meanwhile, of players I've played with, I have seen
    Air + Tactics
    Air + Life
    Bludgeon + Life
    Death + Chaos
    Earth + ???
    Sun + Moon
    Blades + Tactics

    I am sure many more combinations exist out there, but those are the ones I know for a FACT, with the VERY low grouping I do, considering I have 2 kids thus dont want to commit to groups only to let them down. I also dont spend my time asking people what they spec in so I dont know everyone's spec for people I play with.

    If you want to have an argument with people, back yourself up with facts and examples, otherwise even if your idea/suggestion/opinion was excellent, people will end up against you because you can't debate well enough, and just sound like a broken record yelling " Wrong, wrong, wrong!"
     
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  5. Xee

    Xee Bug Hunter

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    Well I am sorry you feel this way @Aetrion , not sure how to help you. Clearly you are looking for an action rpg and not an mmo that is designed around parties and groups.
     
  6. Aetrion

    Aetrion Avatar

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    What they are doing is continuously ignoring what I'm saying and riding on a simplistic argument that sounds right on the surface to force me to give an equally simplistic answer that sounds wrong. It's like trying to discredit a scientist by asking them if cannibalism is wrong over and over. The average person wants them to simply say "Of course it is!", but reality is if you examine all the medical and cultural implications of cannibalism the answer is more like "That depends on who you're eating, how they died, why you're eating them, and how they are prepared". So you just keep asking "So is it wrong or not?" because if you can manage to force the scientist to make a simplistic, binary statement, that allows for all the nuance of the subject as they understand it, they will have to say "Cannibalism isn't wrong" and sound like a monster to everyone.

    You are falling for a rhetorical trick. Read the posts again. They aren't engaging with any nuanced arguments, they just strawman or ignore them so they can keep dragging people's attention to simple questions that have no simple answer.

    Just read the last posts in this thread after mine again. I explained why in SOTA it doesn't matter how well you guard your health beyond merely needing to survive the encounter, and here are the replies I got:
    "Nothing to see here, you're just trying to sound smarter than everyone else" - This isn't an argument at all, just a dismissal + some ad hominem.
    "So you're saying heals and debuffs are pointless?" - Not what I said, I said that once you have enough heals/cc/debuffs/utility to survive the encounter the only thing that makes you more efficient is damage.
    "You don't understand MMORPGs, you've never done anything other than t5 zones. Duel me brah!" - Pointing out how SOTA is different from classic MMORPGs apparently means you don't understand MMORPGs, more ad hominem, and of course an appeal to PvP wins as a source of authority.
    "Clearly you're looking for an action RPG and not a game designed around parties" - Another completely baseless accusation that simply ignores the argument to instead just lie about what I said.

    Don't let these people distract you from the real issue: This is about whether or not universally used skills should be in universal skill trees, and whether or not people should be able to get a spec in those trees so they are more free to develop their character without missing out on the substantial benefits those skills provide. It's also about avoiding the balance problem of having to somehow make combinations of skills that don't buff each other as good as combinations that do.

    If you want to discuss the design philosophy and reasoning behind all this please ask. I'm on Discord if you want to talk in person. It does make sense, but you have to be willing to undertake a deep examination of the topic, what metrics characters can be compared by, what ground work must be laid to balance a game. This is not a simple topic, so please don't fall for people who ignore complex explanations so they can shout "gotcha" if you refuse to answer trap questions.
     
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2019
  7. Xee

    Xee Bug Hunter

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    Then my clear response is No. The base skills are already where they need to be already. the other skills anyone can point up if they want the buff with out having to move anything. As to Specs having two is fine, the point of spec is to give up something to gain more power in a school. Moving these to focus tree and then requiring another spec makes not sense when the current system already works as is. If the devs decide to switch it up that is fine, but I can't seem them doing this large of a change and having to re-balance everything. Archer's are still made at the change, how do you think people will feel if they made this change then all the work they put into classes require them to respec , then later when balance starts they will all go through nerf balances again making even more people mad. people hate nerfs plain and simple this would appeal maybe a some but the nerf will probably cost them more then the people they bring in from this change. not to mention the costs to have someone go through each combo and adjust it as well the time to change up all the tree's, add new skills to the classes that lost the skills moved etc... This is how I see it. I said before that I see why you want it but its not a logical move imo.
     
  8. Aetrion

    Aetrion Avatar

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    That's alright, I just see it differently. I think the balance of the game is a work in progress and will be much easier in the long term if we iron out the flaws in the foundation even if that causes a few growing paints right now. I don't think people are going to have a big problem with these changes, because they provide a buff to practically everyone in the game. If any change to the character system is substantial enough to warrant it the devs could also always issue free respecs to people.
     
  9. Xee

    Xee Bug Hunter

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    that is true, if it happens it happens if not then it still goes on :)
     
  10. Vladamir Begemot

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    We're at a local maxima, as Will Wright talks about in his Game Design Masterclass.

    In order to climb to a higher (better) mountain we must first go down (redesign some) the current one.

    This is a good goal, the combat needs to keep moving to higher mountains.

    I just want to point out that everyone posting here saying the "system is perfect" is also an uber player. Respsect. But that also means all of you have a very small slice of the game play persective, that of "this works perfectly for me".

    If it gets better, ie we climb the next higher mountain (maybe start winning some awards?), it will probably STILL work perfectly for all of you. But if it also works perfectly for more other players, that will be great.

    For example, Xee, the advice you gave me about daggers in PM was solid, and I appreciate it, but it actually kind of discouraged me. I once again feel (correctly or not) that the way I'd LIKE to play (lots of combos, parry/ripost, and manually stacking card draws) will probably never be as effective as large charges of the most important skills. What you've said here about damage reinforced that, and made me more depressed and less likely to go out fighting.

    So traditionally I come at the combat and give it a shot for a while, playing the way that is the most effective, and get bored. Later I jump to my other character and do it my way, since I enjoy it more, but can feel and know that I'll never dish out the damage. Either way means I don't do the combat for very long before playing another game or heading back to my town.

    My point being, it doesn't work for everyone. And you telling us how to make it work for us doesn't mean it is ever going to work, because we might not want to do it your way. Meanwhile, the FRAMEWORK for it to work for me is actually there! It should also be a fun and engaging experience for me, but it's just not quite right yet. And even if someone thinks, as was said in one of these threads, the devs shouldn't waste time on tweaking an already working (for you) combat system, that doesn't mean that person is correct for everyone.

    Combat that keeps more players playing should be the goal. It's a moving target, there are multiple mountains to be scaled before reaching the top, and even if combat gets there, a new mountain may spring up at any time. And the climb is worth it every time, even with the part where we have to go downhill to get to the next uphill slope.
     
  11. Xee

    Xee Bug Hunter

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    You are right making it work is not necessarily the way people want to play. at the end of the day its all math as I pointed out. Even if we did change the system it will come down to math once again which still changes nothing as people will still flock to where the numbers are or for the task at hand. What I think need to happen is those that theory craft and test need to find where the weak links are and perhaps report those as needing some love. That is a lot easier then revamping the whole system which does open up a lot more options but it really at the end of the day ends up the same with just more works on the devs. that said I have never tried to run what you mentioned for skills. so perhaps there is a build in that still... only testing will tell. I have tried all the magic school, and tried most the melee, but I have not focused much on each skill to find out how to make each work for a build. If those are your base skills you want to use then start with them and work a build that uses them as the skills you want.
     
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  12. Violet Ronso

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    There are ways to make what you ask for work, it all depends on what you want to use and look at how to make it efficient. Having an extra spec will not change this (but it would allow for more options, as right now you would need to go for blades + Tactics, no other choice, but if you had a strategy spec you could pick up a magic option or a defensive one, like Light Armor.

    The main advantage of having a Strategy Spec + 2 is to open up diversity in some builds, and where this becomes OP like the crowd is mentioning, is when you look at classes ALREADY using a strategy Spec (Like Polearms + Tactics or Air + Tactics, which could then pickup a 3rd option to make them even stronger, OR if you combine this with Aetrions other suggestion about moving the buff skills to their respective strategy tree.

    The reason for the 2nd reason being op is that there are already some combinations that are INSANELY strong, like the Chaos + Death combo that can dish out insane amounts of damage already, so if you allow that combo to ALSO get an stronger Intelligence buff with a magic Crit bonus, that class wont even be fair, or the Tactocs + Polearms, it then also gets a free Strength buff, and then you can add Heavy/Light armor, or even Life Spec to create an unkillable critting machine. Those are the main classes that makes the suggestions very scary.

    There is a pro, but there is also a Con to these two suggestions, which would either mean some people's builds would end up getting nerfed to the ground to compensate for this new reality, or some people would become clearly too strong.

    @Vladamir Begemot I am theory crafting an Idea for your dual daggers class, if you want HMU with what you have already and I'll see if I got ideas to bring it to a decent level.
     
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  13. Vladamir Begemot

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    @Violette Dyonisys yes, my main point was supposed to be "to get to the point where we have the best combat in any MMO, we're going to have to go downhill sometimes. If you're at a peak, that's the only way to get to the next higher mountain."

    I'm not sure the way I like to play can even be done, as I like the finger jockey play of stacking lots of glyphs. I keep 4 or 5 unlocked. I finally just admitted "I play wrong" and mostly show up for social combat, like guild hunts.

    But yeah, it's off topic from the specific of the triple spec.
     
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  14. Mishikal

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    SOTA was marketed as valuing and prioritizing solo play. Thus the whole deal with Single Player Online.
     
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  15. Aetrion

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    We heard today from Chris that he is planning to add at least two more skills to every tree, and that he is trying to develop a bard tree to release with episode 2. The balance of everything in this game will require significant iteration with those changes in the game. I still maintain that in the long run that balance will be much better if we make sure that everyone can have their stat and crit bonus instead of making those exclusive to certain combinations.

    Balance upsets far more significant than what I'm suggesting are going to happen either way. There will be buffs, there will be nerfs, that is part of playing a living game. Making sure that some combinations no longer multiply each other's effectiveness while others don't will make that balance better and allow more combinations to shine.

    What we should really be thinking about is making a list of new skills that help round out and fully define each tree at this point.
     
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  16. Vladamir Begemot

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    That's a good idea, otherwise Chris is going to have to make them up in one big push in the middle of the night.
     
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  17. Violet Ronso

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    Unfortunate he doesnt do his daily blog anymore, else we could of had that episode with the specs lol!
     
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  18. Sketch_

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    Why though?

    We don't have to do any of that.

    Does your pledge include dev+ access? Shouldn't a thread like this be opened there?
     
  19. Aetrion

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    Dev+ access should not be required to post ideas, and if the game wants to shed its reputation for being a whale hunt they really shouldn't be operating special access forums for big spenders. All of that just leaves a bad taste in people's mouth, like this game isn't for people who aren't thousands of dollars in.
     
  20. kaeshiva

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    The problem I've always had with specialization ever since it was conceived is that it went directly against the "freedom" to "build your character how you wanted" and instead pigeonholed people into highly specific builds. Yes there's hundreds of combinations but the reality is once you exclude experiments, alts, less experienced players and folks who choose the build for roleplay reasons or reasons other than optimisation, there's only a handful of choices, and we see them over and over again. Embrace those optimised builds, or forever play less efficiently. I think the idea to move universal buffs into strategy and allow a free strategy spec has merit, but it will not fix what is wrong with specialization at its core. The way this was done with crafting makes more sense - allow everything to be trained, but make doing so cost prohibitive - which the specialization skills most certainly are. Why does it matter if someone wants to level them all? If you're a weapon user, you're still only able to use one weapon at a time. If you're a magic user, you can still only gear for one attunement at a time. And you're still limited by your deck besides, and the extreme diminishing returns. If people want to waste experience in order to have the capability to swap gear for additional versatility, why is that a problem?

    The reason there's only a handful of viable builds is that the trees are not balanced. I'm not talking about looking at damage tooltips on a spreadsheet, anything with stackable damage-over-time outclasses anything without it, so despite having level 140s in earth magic, I have to swap to fire or to melee to do half the content where even non specialized GMs can outperform. So, why don't I just go sword/tactics or fire/life like everyone else? Because I shouldn't have to.
     
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