Allow a third specialization in a Strategy tree

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Aetrion, Oct 10, 2019.

  1. Adam Crow

    Adam Crow Avatar

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    Answer my questions I've asked you and i will get more in depth with my reasoning.

    But just one example you'd be adding a crit to a death/chaos spec build and any other build that currently doesn't have a bonus to crit. Therefore everything in the tree would have to be lowered dps wise or it would be OP. That would happen in nearly every class like a fire archer for another example. You'd be creating tons of balance issues.

    On top off that you'd be putting up another gate of 12 million xp until new players can effectively compete.

    You're basically just not listening to my reasons. Not sure why.
     
  2. Aetrion

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    This is a nonsense argument. Yes, Death or Chaos with crit bonus is more powerful than without. That's exactly why the current system is impossible to balance. If combining death/sun makes death more powerful, and combining chaos/sun makes chaos more powerful then combining death/chaos should inevitably be less powerful than either of the former combinations unless sun is underpowered when it isn't combined with anything it can make more powerful.

    Your argument simply ignores the inherent imbalance in the current system. Some combinations of skills are more powerful than the sum of their parts currently, and you simply can't balance a system where sometimes 1 + 1 is 3.

    Is the sun skill going to need some buffs if it's no longer propped up by the crit bonus? Sure, but that doesn't mean the current system isn't broken or that any efforts to fix it are futile.

    More nonsense. Where are you getting this 12 million figure from? Raising a third spec? That costs 3.8 to get to 80. Raising the skill itself? That only costs 1.2 to GM. You're also completely ignoring that getting the attunement for one of these skills to 100 costs about 20 million currently.

    These arguments you make are incredibly disingenuous.
     
  3. Spinok

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    @Aetrion since you are not hardcore player, 3 specs is a bad idea in current balance state. Fire mage will be too OP with 3 specs. He will farm despire solo with no problems with 3 specs which is wrong from my point of view.
     
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  4. Mishikal

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    Which is where my idea works -- You only ever get 2 active specializations, keeping the current balance, you just get to mix and match two specs however you please.
     
  5. Vladamir Begemot

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    Powerpoint.
     
  6. Vladamir Begemot

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    A methaphor from where argument, which shouldn't be anyway. Like I said @Aetrion put out the idea and then move on.

    But a metaphor:

    Fellow A says "Wow, the foundation of this house makes it so that we've got some serious problems, we're always going to have marbles rolling when we put them on the floor, never going to be able to make a painting look right when we hang it, and over in that corner is a big bloody hole!"

    Fellows B say: "You shut it! We've been living in this house for ages, and there's nothing wrong with it! See we've built little shims to level all our tables, and we consider the paintings to be styleish when they can't be lined up with both the horizon and the door frame at the same time. And that hole is where I throw all my trash, you leave it out of this!"

    Fellow A: "Well, maybe we should consider jacking that side up and leveling the whole thing off. And while we're at it, we could get a garbage can and stop throwing trash in that hole, it's really starting to smell".

    Fellows B: "You know how much work that would be? Not only would we have to jack it up, but then we would have to BUILD A BLOODY TWO INCHES OF EXTRA FOUNDATION!" And fill that hole, are you out of your mind? Do you know how heavy shovels are? I suppose you will want to fix the plumbing next! No no, it just isn't done. Once a house is built not a tool shall be lifted, that's what I say.

    And good would it do anyway? It keeps the rain off my head, and I can roll a beer all the way to the dining room if someone needs it! Besides, you haven't really proven the foundation is crooked. I don't believe it."

    Meanwhile: This all doesn't matter. Put it in a powerpoint presentation and send it to the municipality. "Jack up this house before the next earthquake".
     
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  7. HogwinHD

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    3 Specs, with only 2 active at any one time.. i like it :D you turn the 3rd spec off with the ''not training'' icon so that it provides no benefit
    until such a time that you need it, you set another spec you have to off in place of that one :)
     
  8. Adam Crow

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    That isn't why, and it isn't impossible to balance. It's very hard to balance because we can train and use all skills at any time. So you have to balance things based on the fact we are playing a classless system and you have to take all the different combinations into account. Which is why you can get a crit bonus with some schools/combinations and you can't when combining others. Your idea will make it harder to balance NOW.

    Like I've already said, if we started from scratch, then sure id be ok with your idea. But what your asking for would require a complete overhaul and that just isn't going to happen at this point in the game. It would cause so many problems its just not worth the effort. Ive said my side and I'm not going to comment any further on something that has no chance at being implemented.
     
  9. Barugon

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    It costs ~24 million.
     
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  10. Adam Crow

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    You are correct. My bad.
     
  11. Adam Crow

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    This is cool idea and would be pretty fun! But 3 active at once would just mess everything up.
     
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2019
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  12. Xee

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    The issues I see is that the current system was designed so you have balance. pro/cons to each build based on your choices. I know full well why you would want this change but the skills are where they were placed for a reason to create the hard to make choices. To change it to what you purpose would be a very large change and require a complete rework / balance of all schools which would take a lot of time and testing. If they simply made the change there would be too many combonations that would be way over powered and I know as I have tested almost every school combo. I can tell you it would break a lot of the PVP stuff and create too many things that would have to be balanced and we dont have 4 years again to fix balances and the the things that come from that. As well the "balance fixes" would for sure get people mad because they would be all excited like yourself for getting this change but then oh wait they are going to lower all your skills now to be more inline with the dmg numbers they want per class... so like that of archer now how do you think people will take it when all existing know how would change and those changes would be in this constant state of change util all 2xx options are fully checked to prevent too many OP options :)

    just saying well I understand your reasons, its not something this late in the game that would be an easy change and it would be very chaotic...
     
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  13. Aetrion

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    They don't make it hard to make choices, they collapse the number of viable choices significantly. I see no reason why anything should become "way overpowered" just because it's no longer too weak to even consider. Reality is and remains that the current system cannot ever be balanced, because as long as some specific skill combinations are more powerful than the sum of their parts all combinations there cannot ever be balance between all combinations.

    The current system is NOT balanced. It is in fact so unbalanced that people have forgotten that it is supposed to be a free build system, and instead have simply accepted the few overpowered combinations and cherry picked decks as what are effectively character classes. Those classes are somewhat balanced, but the actual freedom the system was meant to provide is nowhere to be found.
     
  14. Xee

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    It is a free build system... always has been. The Only thing that changes that is specialization which was designed for those that wanted to focus with a trade off. did it create major imbalance ? nope. I will tell you why. There are many builds that do not require the spec's to be just a OP but in different ways. Not one class is designed to do all. that is by design. between magic resistances for various schools and physical which is now working , ever class has a weakness to both pve and pvp.

    There is still int, dex and str options which you can pump points into. the base buffs well yes under other tree are a bonus they are not required to be the best. just because one guy can hit hard in one scene does not mean in another he is just as OP. there are trade offs for power. the Cherry pick is by design so you can experiment and build decks for specific encounters.

    Well some like to GM all others like to focus it all into 1-2 skills. does that make them OP because they put all 40mil into one skill? no. just means they gave up options to do what they do.

    There still needs to be some balances which are always happening.

    I can't think of any classes that are not viable or OP in one form or another. It does not always rely on the 3 buffs or the spec versions. If you want to discuss your deck and how you run it and what challenges I am sure some would be more then happy to help push you in a direction. myself for one build I have 4 decks running to pull off what would be consider OP. I can tell you half the people that dont feel OP have not fully looked at each skill and the numbers completely. This is why most the top players will not share their deck setups or spell / skill rotations.

    This is just my opinion based on 4+ years of testing and crafting.
     
  15. Vladamir Begemot

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    Did anyone get double daggers working well?
     
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  16. Brass Knuckles

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    Speaking for me personally, I’m not interested in a 3rd spec option. That’s why I have multiple char slots unlocked.
     
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  17. Xee

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    yes :) I had a dual dagger build back when I was testing xen bow. it was very awesome and allowed me to solo dragons with very high crit rate ;)
     
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  18. Vladamir Begemot

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    Wow, did you use parry/riposte at all? That was my main interest there but it's so much button pounding I can't bring myself to do it often.
     
  19. Xee

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    Negative. If you want to talk about this build VB we can do it in discord private as its not one I want to share in public as I still have plans for it later once I am done with my current testing of a mage build to solo 2 of the big dragons head to head with out cover ;)
     
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  20. Aetrion

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    There are tons of things that don't work. Let alone going down the list of all the possible combinations of bow + a magic school. Pure mages of most schools don't exist, and when it comes to melee weapons you also don't really see a lot of combinations with different magic schools. People who want to use heavy armor skills also pretty frequently only wear heavy armor chest pieces and light armor for the limbs for access to spells.

    This whole claim that this is a wide open and well balanced free build system is nonsense. The only reason anyone can reasonably claim it's a free build system is because people train up everything to cherrypick the few good skills out of it.