Nudity and Sexual Content

While I have no problem with sexuality/nudity in games, I don't believe it has a place in SOTA.

This is an interactive game which is going to lead to issues. For instance, lets say your 14 year old meets some 30 year old in game who is interested in the sexual aspects of the game more than anything else. Having that kind of content often draws in the wrong type of people. Example: Second Life where a good 60% of the people are there to hit on others and engage in cybersex. This is not the type of draw players would want for SOTA. If it was solely single player, that would be one thing and could be done in a fashion like Dragon Age has done, but not an interactive multiplayer game.

The bottom line is that we already know a good amount of younger people will be playing the game. Adding this type of content would be counter-productive because it would limit the playerbase.

 

I meant anyone in this thread. Forgive my <i>tautology</i>.

Hot Coffee is a good example, though. The scene in question in GTA wasn't even accessible through normal play, but just because it existed <b>in the game's code</b> it created a mini-debacle and was taken off shelves.

 

<blockquote>I meant anyone in this thread.</blockquote>

This too would be inaccurate, for I am here.

To clarify, though, I am offended primarily by gratuitous nudity which serves no discernible narrative purpose. Romantic subplots of the <em>Mass Effect</em> variety are tolerable, although I fail to see the appeal of two clumps of polygons bumping and grinding in a simulacrum of a sexual act.

 

Mystic the flip side of that is a lot of us (including myself) are intending on playing with our spouse and it might be fun to roll play sex just as much as anything else.

Considering the gore people are asking for the game will already get an R rating so there shouldn't BE any 12 year olds, and I find "think of the children" to be a poor cop out that comes to often from the Puritan crowd to limit other people's sexual experiences which have nothing to do with children (and one of my real life rolls IS child protection advocacy)

Instead of limiting other people parents and children need to take some responsibility too, for starters not lying when a game asks how old are you and secondly parents should be monitoring there children's play

 

<blockquote>...it might be fun to roll play sex just as much as anything else.</blockquote>

That's kind of an edge case, no? And besides...as fun as getting it on the in the game might be, isn't it even more fun to just walk over to her computer and start something IRL? YMMV, but I find IRL sex to be way more fun than the online/simulated variety.

Same goes for nudity, actually; would I prefer to see my wife's naked virtual avatar or her actual naked body?

Granted, there's an argument to be made that if one travels often (as I do), having the option to do the SotA cybernasty might be interesting. Then again, that's why there's <a href="http://couple.me/">Couple</a>.

 

I find this thread is covering all sorts of extreme angles on the subject.

I wasn't even thinking about the multiplayer aspect, just nudity in the SPO plot. In that case, the requirement would simply be for it to be handled maturely and not do it for its own sake, as its been handled in previous Ultima games. Previous Ultimas -- Serpent Isle, etc -- have handled this perfectly. Like this isn't a horror game, and doesn't need excessive gore, its also not a porn game and doesn't need excessive sex.

With multiplayer, lets consider the hypothetical.. there are a lot of issues about misuse of this in the game world, so you'd have to restrict it to bedrooms and not anywhere in the public game world. Make it a crime, like the OP said. And then, it would be again excessive and not add anything to show graphic depictions of sex, so you'd want some shortened sequence. In that case, all that trouble only seems worth it at all if they're putting player pregnancy in the game -- which they have yet to talk about -- and if its planned, it would probably be far down on the list of stretch goals, with a lot of other content in front of it. So we can talk about that if it comes up as a goal, ever.

Btw, talking about realism ... It would get a bit more complicated. Realism in the Middle Ages would mean contraception methods that were really unsafe and ineffective. You'd be having a baby in the game or causing your character physical harm. If you didn't want the baby, you'd be aborting it, but more likely killing it after it was born, since abortion methods then were also really unsafe.

 

Addressing the challenges:

1. Priority. I fully agree that in terms of gameplay and features, the cosmetic aspects take a backseat. We need this game to function properly/build the house before we paint it. And even if the game reaches the 2.25 mark ($50,000 to go) the priority first goes to extensive facial and body shape customization. We do mostly everything else, and THEN add the nudity. If you think it will be forgotten/ignored, consider that for games such as Fallout/Skyrim/GTA 4, people have been changing skins to have nudity. http://www.loverslab.com/topic/29-fallout-adult-3-mods-list/

2. Ratings. We don't know what the plans are for distribution. While I would opt for only digital downloads (which is where all gaming is most likely headed) even Minecraft has slowly been making it's way to retail. Why? Is Kick-starter and Amazon not enough? Are there still considerable profits to be gained from giving hard copies to AO-rejecting distributors? Why are we stuck in a society where AO games can't make it? This game isn't going to be a "Custer's Revenge". Germany and Australia have tough rating laws, but they also have very militant protestors and opposition. If anything, I think any aspect of "playing it safe" would actually hurt this game. People would get bored and think "Well, it's just another MMO". This game is being made to challenge the current "norm". I'm pretty sure if it's different enough, it becomes a part of pop culture and we all win.

3. What does nudity add? Well, what DOESN'T it add? I hate to keep bringing up popular Television, but Breaking Bad, Dexter, and Game of Thrones have graphic violence, nudity, and sexual content in very select moments. This goes back to my "compromise". Stop pretending you won't play a game if it has boobs. Especially well-done and tastefully applied boobs. This isn't some retarded flash game from a hentai archive you're paying 20 bucks a month to access. You won't be a loser for admitting you play this game. If you're as deep and artistically concerned as you make yourself out to be, then you will do whatever it takes to make a different gaming and narrative experience. If you're concerned about success, then you will still do whatever it takes because the only people worried about numbers are WoW players. I want SotA to replace that stagnant, mentally and financially exploitive apologist number-cruncher by showing MMO gamers that the experience is far more important than the acquisition of stats and currency. In this aspect, my wish for nudity is actually a far more mature philosophical battle bent on freedom of expression and freedom from oppression/ignorance.

4. Gross Half-life/Avatar sex site players. We established it's illegal in heavily populated and moral places. What if they could only do it in immoral PK zones? Would it make you happy if you could just kill them to show your disapproval of their disgusting actions?

5. Hot coffee minigame. I knew this piece of history was going to be brought up. I would submit that this would be pretty cool, but no dev would be courageous enough to bring it up. They'd probably even be laughed out of the building or fired if they tried to insist on it. I won't fight as hard for it, but I won't give up on it. There might be some players who want to role-play as prostitutes or share intimate experiences with their partner online. And why minimize or log out to masturbate when you can just keep playing the game ?

 

@Rasaro,

I like a lot of those cable shows, especially Boardwalk Empire and Dexter, but I think a lot of them do overdo it with sexual and violent content just to get ratings, and its about sensationalism and getting an audience as much as anything artistic. There's also a lot of sensationalism in the advertising for the shows. Or to put it another way: its hard to get a show to air on HBO/Showtime unless it has a lot of sex and violence in it. And that's not a good thing at all.

I've also met some people who've also liked those shows the same but complain because if the producers just toned them down a little bit, they'd be something they could enjoy with their kids. But because the producers went overboard w/ sex and violence they can't do that.

 

I was going to stay away from this thread as I figured the topic would be well in hand and quite honestly I don't have it in me to more than skim through but I'd just like to make a couple comments.

1: No amount of skin or sexual content will improve the quality of a game. If the game needs it in order to sell then it has some serious flaws.

Any time this kind of subject comes up I immediately think about some truly great movies and the absolute lack of this sort of thing. Did we need so see Aragorn and Arwin doing the deed for LoTR to be a good movie? No, of course not. The story and movie stands well enough on its own because it's a GOOD movie based on a GOOD story. It didn't need to pander to a cheap audience to be a financial success.

SotA shouldn't need to rely on cheap thrills. If for whatever reason such a thing has significance to the story then there are more tasteful ways to go about it.

2: Online interactions are not rated by the ESRB. Enough said.

3: If you really MUST have the 'eye candy' get one of the inevitable mods that'll remove your undies and add unnecessary details and be responsible for it yourself. There will no doubt be at least one popular texture replacer out there. Such a thing is visible only to those who have it installed and are solely the responsibility of the player. Plus they don't alter the game in any way so it ought to work online just fine.

I see no reason what so ever for Portalarium to even consider adding this kind of content if they plan on making a high quality game.

 

@Bowen,

Yea, often people say you need sex and violence in a movie for it to be interesting, my response is always to say: that's called bad writing.

 

People are asking for the ability to put player heads on plaques, to skin players, to use there bones

Personally I am of the opinion that THAT is much more horific than any amount of even full pornographic sex that 2 consensual players chose to engage in. In fact the fact that people are calmly talking about this level of violence while critizing sex and sexuality and even nudity to me shows what is so wrong with society in general

 

Ultima games have never shied away from sexual content but I find the over sexualization of characters in most games boring and childish. Brothels were a common enough sight in medieval Europe. Woman running around fighting in gold bikinis? Not so much.

 

I only skimmed through this so forgive me - but I have to laugh, as I am a woman and I wouldn't mind running a brothel in the game and I find nothing offensive about sex or nudity. But lord, no, this is not something I'd want Portalarium spending any money implementing. This is a game with a set universe and storyline and meant to be played within that- its not Second Life or the Sims or what have you- it's not meant to be played in place of real life and thus it does not need every single life feature such as naked pixels, sex act emotes or penalties for sexual misconduct. I'd be offended as a backer if they spent any money implementing these things. Just about every other possible game feature is more important.

This is besides the points that others brought up regarding ratings, offending people, breaking immersion, immature behaviors, making people uncomfortable etcetc.

One can roleplay things without needing it explicitly drawn out. If you need those things in your life, there are other outlets for it both in games and in real life.

Don't be surprised if you find Dame Lori's Cathouse in game one day lol (and don't be surprised if its fulla half naked guys as well bwahaha...) but I absolutely would not want Portalarium to take resources away from other game features to do anything to support that. I hope we didn't all lose our imaginations in our old age - that should be enough to support anything in this realm.

 

About sex vs. violence~ Its not actual violence and there is a huge difference. Skinning players isnt really more horrific than killing them, and everyone here is fine with killing things in games. I'm not one that really subscribes to the notion of violence in video games causing violence in real life. I don't even hurt bugs in RL, but I have a damn hearty laugh when I shoot a guy in borderlands and his head flies off like a champagne cork.

I can't typically put players heads on spikes in RL so that is more entertaining to me within a game, so I'd say sure go for that, but leave sex features out. I wouldn't back "Sex of the Avatar." (uhhh..actually now that I write it out, maybe I would. but not at Dame level. LOL) Some things can just be taken care of in real life or through other outlets and simply don't have more pros than cons within a game like this.

I agree that in real life, especially in America, there is a problem with "violence ok - sex BAD" but I'm just speaking about the game here, as thats a whole other lengthy issue... Just want to emphasize that not wanting these things to be implemented in SotA isn't necessarily a criticism of sex, but a criticism of poor allocation of game funds IMO

 

@Bowen @Redfish Agreed! :3

 

@Dame,

I don't think ?violence ok ? sex BAD? exists as much as people say it does.

The concern is that usually this: sex in the media influences young people more than violence does. When someone is gunned down in a movie, a kid isn't going to go out on a murder spree unless something else is emotionally wrong with him -- he knows that violence has consequences, and the consequences aren't nice. He doesn't want to die; he doesn't want others to die. Most people also don't like to watch extremely graphic violence, so most people will shy away from gore and blood. That's human nature. However, people -- especially young people -- want to see sex, and the consequences of sex aren't shown, so entertainment often ends up creating a very glamorous, unrealistic picture of what sex is.

But there are cases where violence has been glamorized too, and when that happens, it becomes just as much as a public concern. So for instance, take, gangsta rap. There was big concern that inner city kids would think the gang life style was cool and cop killing was okay. And there's been just as much concern with violent games that people think make killing look fun. Also, war movies tend to be criticized if they ever step into the frame of romanticizing war, so most major war movies nowadays -- ie Private Ryan -- have a "war is hell" theme.

The issues will always go together, though. People who complain about sex on tv also complain about violence on tv. People who want entertainment with lots of sex also want media with lots of violence. Case in point -- Rasaro wants a lot of both. Others here probably don't want a lot of either.

 

If sex was openly and honestly discussed in society and not treated as something bad/forbidden/dirty/rebellious, there wouldn't be a problem with sex in the media influencing young people in wrong directions.

The topics as they apply to real life are never-ending and I'm not going to delve further into them... we'd be here all year I'm just concerned with SotA game features right now

 

For my part I was considering taking my previous post and cutting and pasting it (with minor revisions) to whatever violence related thread I saw floating around here. I would like to clarify that I am speaking in context of entertainment in general. Graphic violence, excessive blood, heads on pikes etc.. don't make a game any better either. It's just pandering to a different tastes.

A truly good game doesn't need it. I've said this many times and I stick to it. Gameplay is king. If I had to assign a role to story then that is queen. Skin and sex do little to nothing for either.. and neither does blood &amp; gore. Not unless you're making pornographic horror in which case I'd question your taste in entertainment.

I do not consider who is going to be offended by what. There's always going to be someone who wants to be offended badly enough that they'll find something. I consider the value something brings to the game and look back at games and movies that have been highly successful.. and have concluded these things simply aren't necessary and can even bring harm to a game/movie when it's simply gratuitous.

 

@Bowen Bloodgood. Your strong disdain makes me quite curious. You sound as if you've been raised in a convent, or have been extremely jaded by massive amounts of media where the nudity and violence truly IS pandering and gratuitous. While I agree that gameplay is king, I disagree that violence and nudity have no place anywhere.

I wish I could've read the books you've read. I wish I could've seen the movies you've seen. In fact, it was probably I who was raised in a convent because I couldn't care less about a narrative or characters unless it's believable. How is it believable? Usually when I can actually SEE and therefore understand their motivations.

Har har! I am evil and want to knock you over for no reason,
VS,
Har har! I am evil because I impaled your father right in front of you because I have complex abandonment issues.

Ho ho! I am good because I want peace and it is my duty to battle evil,
VS,
Ho ho! I want to be alive long enough to get laid and kill you for what you did to my father and consequently my mind.

My point is, there has been an imbalance. Everyone with your thinking has media stagnant and boring. Yes, nudity and violence doesn't belong everywhere, but no, it is not just a cheap thrill. I suppose you can be forgiven since nudity and violence comes easy to the simple-minded and bad content creators, but it is still merely a tool. A tool that should be put in the proper hands and not dismissed due to arrogance and fear of contempt.

Seeing Aragorn and Arin bang in LOTR would've made the trilogy twice as memorable. Then again, what age was LOTR made for? A lot of brutal death and scary cgi monsters in that one. One could call THAT pandering and gratuitous.

 

@DameLori. So compassionate and understanding, and yet also the most deflating. I'm not sure if I have any steam left.

Is this Ultima universe really so concrete for you? Is there no room for a reboot or re-imagining while still keeping most of everything the same?

The nudity takes a backseat, but you can say that for EVERY cosmetic choice. I've stated in my previous posts that I understand everything else comes first. But when "everything else" is done, would you THEN accept it? Far-reaching roleplaying has always seemed silly to me. Especially with things like (*takes a breath and reclines in chair) this or that/sigh. Yet this is how the majority of roleplaying is done. I just think If people had the control and options like they did in the sims, then it wouldn't seem so out of place.

I'm afraid that I'm bored of my imagination. I think my brain has been wired so that I can't concentrate on keeping a single image and adding detail. There is too much of everything else to think about, and that's why I'm happy when it's already been fleshed out in front of me. I'll be 20 this summer. I'm afraid the resigning disillusionment of "everything has it's place and no business in other places" hasn't sunken into me yet. I guess I'm naive'.

Your words still hint of certain contradictory agreement. Let me ask this then: if this wish of many "outlets in one" has no place in Ultima, where is it's place then? Do you think this game idea would work anywhere else?

In someone else's hands, I'm just as pessimistic as Bowen.