Nudity and Sexual Content

How should it be handled? Or should it be handled at all?

This continues from my blood/gore thread. One could argue it isn't worth it. A game should be able to tell a story without sex. We would be able to avoid all criticisms of objectifying people, misrepresenting genders, immaturity, disgust, and all possible public backlash/altruistic punishment.

However, last I checked, this is a game with a focus on role-playing. Classic D&D style freedom and deviance. I would love to see anything that adds realism into fantasy. Why else is Game of Thrones so popular?
Forget about ratings and picture with me, (if you will) an SotA where when all the armour is off, you actually see genitalia.

General society:
-Being naked in a public, lawful place is a criminal offence. Repeat offenders risk harsher penalties.
-Any public intercourse would be even incur penalties even more harsh!
-Being naked, you are the most vulnerable. You die instantly/quickly if attacked naked.
-Brothels are made more believable. Wait, are there brothels in this game??

Customization (if 2.25 stretch goal is reached):

-You can change the size of your unmentionables. While everyone would probably make their breasts or penis huge, I think people would actually get tired of exaggerating these features. In order to be unique, people would start to choose tiny-average body parts on their characters, creating a possible backstory/trait of self-esteem/appearance issues.

-Both genders have the option to wear sexualized clothing/armour. Maybe it provides a bonus, maybe it's better to wear more protective armour. Maybe it changes NPC reaction. Maybe you have to wear them for certain quests.

-Dare I say...You can make a transgender character?? *cue lightning flash.

-Wider variety range of NPC character models.

Gaming Experience:
-You can have intercourse with other players/NPCs. Hot or awkward? You decide. The children have to come from somewhere. Maybe some children are born with defects, and the player has to choose whether to keep them or not.
-It is possible to become castrated. How's that for a trait? You can't have children!
-What if an evil sorcerer could shrink or enlarge you as payment/punishment?
-You'd be nervous around naked humanoids found in caves/dungeons. Find skeletons of previous people who learned of their true natures/intentions too late.

Add to my list or tell me why this isn't a good idea.

 

I think this should be handled in the real world with a real person....

 

Having anything except implied sexual intercourse will warrant an adults only rating from the ESRB and consequently severely hurt the game's ability to be sold. Steam, for instance, likely doesn't permit anything over an M-rating, and Wal-Mart, GameStop, and Best Buy similarly don't as well.

Light nudity will get an M rating for sure and anything except hinted sex is all that is allowed in T-rated games.

Personally, I don't care if there's brothels or whores or whatever as long as its there to help tell a story and not to be gratuitous. I hate how the God of War series handles nudity and sex because it's nothing more than a cheap ploy to garner sales from the pubescent crowd. I also would really hate if players began roleplaying sex in front of me in a tavern or something. That's an easy way to get a blacklist from me.

tldr; Story should trump game ratings, but nothing explicit.

 

- I don't think there should be any sexualized armor. This is a non-serious element of a lot of RPGs that has no purpose except pandering to adolescent players. Joan of Arc had custom fitted armor made for her, but there were no breasts on it. Medieval clothing in general was very modest and even dresses (cotehardie) would hide and flatten the breasts, but at any rate, if you were going out into battle, attracting members of the opposite sex or making a statement about your sexuality was the least thing you would think about.

- I personally don't mind nudity and there has been nudity in Ultima games before (Frigidazzi!) There have been prostitutes in several Ultima games too. But this game is going to be a lot more detailed graphically so it presents a lot of issues for the designers, if not from a tact standpoint, from a development standpoint.

- Any sex in the story, if it exists at all, would probably best be handled gracefully, in fade-to-black fashion.

 

There's really no need. Nothing wrong with pretty character models, but I don't think anyone over 13 wants to look at naked pixels.

 

@rune_74. You wouldn't be in the minority. Fantasy games are an escape for most. I'd like to see where Lord British draws the line. I'm just here to provide new ideas.

@tekkamansoul. God of War is a hack-and-slash. SotA wouldn't be exploiting nudity for sales. I figured that rating system would be trouble. What if this game only sold online instead of pandering to retailers or steam? They've already done a kick-starter, what if there was never any distributor in the first place?

I don't think it's possible to avoid people who role-play sex in any online game, but I'm hoping with the intercourse mini-game/feature, they won't have to be so public. Using your tavern scenario, instead of seeing people say to each other "Ohh, I would ____ in your _____ and then ____ ever so _____with___" and getting all nauseatingly detailed, they would instead just buy a freaking room in the tavern/brothel and do it private. What if you could anonymously report/complain to a guard who would then come and kick the inappropriate erotic-chat people out?

@redfish

-So would you take the sexualized armour out completely or settle for making it available but less beneficial?
What if it were considered as a "light armour" and gave bonuses to agility or speed? I say "sexualized" but I also mean "suggestive", "revealing", "light", and anything opposite to heavy/shielding/protective. It isn't so much as attractive as it is distracting. What if some characters are proud of their physical attributes and are cocky enough to display them even in battle? What if they gained greater benefits from wearing less than wearing more? It's a role-playing game, so should it really be made hard for some people to play a role?

I always felt cheated in a fade to black. Even in Fable when they would provide goofy noises. What's the point if you can't even get a visual reward?

 

@Rasaro,

In a role-playing game you should be allowed to play a role, but limited to the setting. I just don't think purposely revealing armor is appropriate to the setting in a serious game.

I haven't played Fable, but I'd disapprove of goofy noises. I only say fade-to-black because I don't think a long drawn out sex sequence wouldn't add anything. If the characters get nude, and then start the act by embracing each other physically, then fade to black, then show them naked in bed then that would be ok too. Depends how much the devs have a problem with adding nudity.

 

@PrimeRib

Would you say it's too much pointless effort to give players that choice?

Would it just be a novelty that will be seen and then instantly forgotten/annoying?

 

Richard Garriott isn't exactly known for making hyper-sexualized games, although it is true that some of the <em>Ultimas</em> featured nudity (albeit highly pixelated) and other sexually-charged topics in optional sequences.

Given Garriott's penchant for medievalism, I'd expect fairly realistic armours will be the order of the day. Of course, that's just my speculation based on past experience with his games; it could well be the case that Portalarium furnish crafters and players with a battery of 3D models for..."revealing" armour types. Overt nudity seems less likely, however, except (again) possibly as a component of optional sequences in the plot. I doubt players will have the opportunity to go streaking.

 

@Rasaro

I think your idea of Customization and Gaming Experience is rather disturbing... and I'm sure that's not what the developers had in mind.
Running around in your undies is fine. It happens in every game already.

I really feel like that sort of thing has no place within this game that is being developed. Not in the way
you see it anyway.

There are other ways that can be accomplished in the game.

 

Ratings problems aside, which are pertinent and have already been enumerated, I do not see how this could add anything to the game. Nudity does not both me, but this seems rather excessive, and would most certainly diminish the game experience for me. I would probably even go so far as to penalize running around in one's underwear to some degree, as it is, in my opinion, not in keeping with the theme of the game.

 

@Ultima Codex. You have given me the most hope so far. I would do anything to raise the probabilities in your analysis.

@SolaceVale. What other ways? Everyone else has managed to base their dismissals.

@Archaaz. Would you like to elaborate on your "theme of the game"? I thought it was role-playing.

My ideas are neither excessive nor disturbing. I only want to see fantasy role-playing games taken to a new level by giving complete freedom to appearance and action. What's excessive and disturbing is the discomfort and closed-mindedness I'm seeing in this forum. As the community and funders, we have the right to brainstorm and suggest radical ideas.

Reading everyone's posts in this thread has made me realize that holding back has it's place, and demonstrates great artistic skill. However, I also love having a good time, and I am having an absolute blast when I see both nudity and violence. I don't want to polarize, but most of you seem to be on the fence and that decreases the chances of anything going anywhere.

This is a fantasy, (so we should go all out), but we're gunning for realism, (so we have to be reasonable). I think a compromise should be reached so that we can get the most fun and immersive experience possible. To be honest, I think I would start to get bored of pixelated body parts too. A tasteful balance should be found.

But first, do these ideas seem really misplaced? If we're channeling the role-playing of the 70-80's into this game, are we not looking for a brutal, sexy, and "Heavy Metal" experience or is it the opposite? This is 2013 and we have the means to elevate this experience even further. We are progressive, and do not judge race, sexuality, or gender. We should be able to role-play who we want to role-play. Marry, fornicate, fight, steal, aid, and communicate with whoever we want, and face the consequences of our actions.

In my mind, current companies and developers are seriously screwing up. In their ivory towers, they mistake good profits for good gameplay, mistake challenge and new ideas as unworthy risk, and mistake all gamers as rich, urban, middle-upper class children. They degrade games and content with their countless mistakes. Are you all the bland, boring consumer children they think you are? If you're reading this, I highly doubt that. Seriously, * ratings. Just because a baby can't chew my steak...

When I first saw Garriott introduce SotA, I thought, "here is a man from the past who has the capacity to change the present". There are no suits or politics to hold him back. He only answers to his community, and it's ironic that this fact scares even the community itself. We have the ability to raise the standard for everything.

What if it were all optional? An 18+"awesome" button you could press on the character creation screen?
-Awesome customizes birthday suit. Normal sees loin-cloth or whatever.
-Awesome sees other birthday suits. Normal sees other loincloths or black censor bars. (Since a normie never customized, the default is a small penis that only awesome people can see.)
-Awesome sees unfiltered chat. Normal chat censors explicit words.
-Quests are slightly altered. Mentions of ****, castration, and desecration are replaced for Normal mode with "diddled", "fixed", and "goofed" respectively.

Might be extra work, but we can all have our cake and eat it too.

* edited for language - Koldar

 

I am not even sure if Portalarium will be pushing to get the game rated in the first place. I think it is only required by stores in order for them to carry physical copies of the game. I am not sure what their plans are for distribution, I guess I just assumed they would digitally distribute.

Ultima games seemed to always target at an older audience, and if anything that target age has only gone up.
There has been some limited nudity in past Ultima games, but the resolution was so low you could hardly tell.

With that being said, would nudity and sexual content enhance the game in any meaningful way? I doubt it. If anything it hurts the social aspect of the game. I know I would be less likely to recommend the game to some of my friends and I certainly wouldnt want my family involved.

 

Let's keep in mind too that the game isn't being developed on a massive budget, and that there is already clamour for a goodly number of features and systems that will take a fair bit of time and effort to implement, even with Unity as the game's base. As well, let's keep in mind that it's a 3D game, which means that anything relevant to this discussion -- e.g. alternative "nude" base character models (with or without manipulable "parts"), and a broad selection of "skimpy" clothing and armour pieces -- will require still yet more time and effort to develop.

There's a lot of development effort that would need to go into supporting nudity and sexual content as optional game elements...and they would have to be kept optional, since they really aren't the sort of thing every player wants to have to deal with.

And strangely, I can see Portalarium opting to prioritize most other systems and features over titillation when it comes to which part of development the last few backer dollars will be allocated to.

That's not to say that it can't or won't happen...just that it's probably a lot further down the list of priorities.

 

Just to reiterate, nobody is offended by sexual content, but what will this really add to the game? Will this make the most immersive fantasy RPG ever, or turn the game into a community of Second Lifers? I wager the latter.

Don't dismiss an AO rating as something that people will ignore or even look at in a positive light. This kind of inclusion will give the game bad press. A lot of potential players will not play simply because it has overt sexual content. It will not get any advertisement. It will hurt sales, a lot. If the game doesn't appear on Steam, GoG, or ANY public retailer shelves, that's a big frickin deal.

Would you rather have the ability to play an awkward sex mini-game, or have this game be a huge success?

 

Nothing wrong with a few skimpy outfits. But doing anything more will ensure that few <i>actual</i> women play this game. If you've been on any board, for any game, most feel harassed and objectified enough as it is already.

This really adds nothing to the game. And takes away both your younger audience and your older one. (In addition to women ofc.) So you've be designing a game that only appealed to 17-23 year old males. And younger ones lying about their age, ofc.

 

<blockquote cite="tekkamansoul">...nobody is offended by sexual content...</blockquote>

I don't think this particular tautology is valid.

 

Not only would having this content make most major retailers refuse to sell it, including a number of major online retailers, but it would be illegal to sell in several countries.

Having an 18+ button to enable or disable the features wouldn't help - they are still in the game, so they affect to rating.

 

This adds nothing to the story or gameplay and could make it more appealing to the "OMG B00BAYS, hee hee" crowd of 12 year olds.

Please, no.

 

<em>Shroud of the Avatar: Hot Coffee!</em>

I submit that very few people actually want this.