Currency Serpent Isle Style -- (Dev) Replied

Wouldn't be surprised if only 1 person who reads this has played Serpent Isle aka Ultima VII Part Two, but the currencies in that game were amazing, there were 4 main currencies in this game but there was a set value on Gold Nuggets, Gold Bars, Jewelry & Gems as well, these could be traded in for a set value making them a currency of their own, but the 4 main currencies were;

Gold
Monteri
Filari
Guilder

The chances are no one will respond to this, as I've posted half a dozen great ideas, directly from the previous Ultimas, ideas that aren't owned by EA, ideas that made the previous Ultimas great, yet these ideas seem to be ignored, I'm noticing this is a trend, to avoid the great ideas and settle for the mediocre ideas, I really hope this game turns out great but it will only turn out great if some of these great ideas are used.

http://wiki.ultimacodex.com/wiki/Serpent_Isle_Exchange_Rate

WoW/Guild Wars/Guild Wars 2 use a standard Gold/Silver/Copper type system which is pretty boring. I propose a Serpent Isle style currency system is used, it makes something as mundane as currency turn from boring to interesting and lore filled if it involves a diverse exchangable tradable different number of currencies.

 

Well, I'm going to have to keep an eye out for you from now on.

Could you explain a bit more how 4 currencies change game-play?

Right now, I can only think of WoW, where certain items could only be exchanged for various combinations of marks that you earned from winning pvp battles or doing dailies for a faction.

 

I do remember the currency from Serpent Isle and did like the system that was in place. The standard gold/silver/copper is a bit old and done way to regularly in games these days.

It would be nice to have a few different types of currency and need to travel to particular locations (i.e. towns) where you could trade one for the other. Then you could use gold bars or gems as the middle ground and have more places that trade those particular items for currency.

This way more creatures can drop gold and gems, which you trade for the currency in the area where you are. Makes a bit more sense to me if creatures drops gems (oohhhh shiny things) that they have found, rather than the common 3 copper and 2 silver pieces. Since when did rats carry around coins anyway

 

@Razimus - I sort of like the idea, though I'm not sure exactly why you think it a great one rather than an okay one. Maybe you're just not doing a good enough job selling your great ideas? Excite me - why will this make the game better? @Minoc gave one reason that I think it's a decent way to do things, for realism with loot. Of course, another way would be to just not have rats drop gold, and only drop fur and meat (even more realistic), but it depends on the sorts of things you want to be common drops.

What would multiple currencies add? It could, I guess, help make certain regions feel different from others (they don't even use the same currency!). Maybe exchanging between currency types comes at a cost, and this would act as a gold sink for the economy? I guess that might be kind of interesting, and if you make the exchange rate costly enough, you sort of fragment the economy based on region. I'm not sure if that's a good or bad thing, but certainly interesting. But I'm done speculating - what do you think is so great about multiple currencies?

 

The worth of currency in the Medieval era was based on its metal value anyway. You had the government create coinage, but it was only to give a sort of stamp of approval, certifying that the coin was of a certain weight and metallic consistency.

I'm okay with the idea in abstract, but I think Serpent Isle did a bit overboard on it. Stuff like glowing banknotes. Plus at all places of commerce there would be moneychangers, they would determine the value of money by weighing it (they also were the bankers). It was a bit hard, as I remember, to exchange money in Serpent Isle. Plus if it were in the game it would probably not be divided by cities but realms, maybe whole continents.

 

Here's another question: should some local merchants accept barter? So you don't have to first sell your goods to them and only then buy what you want to buy of equal value?

I assume there'll to be a player trade system in the game, and it wouldn't be that hard to apply to merchants too.

@Alayth,

I prefer the UO system where animals didn't drop fur and meat, you had to skin them to get it. Rats would probably have nothing on their body, but carry sometimes to their nests.

 

@redfish - Agreed, I was using the term "drop" somewhat loosely

 

@Razimus: you're a genius. seriously. this would give the devs a way to implode/explode and control the economy against inflation in surgical ways that no other game has been able to accomplish. you should be a virtual economist. if i were an executive at portalarium i'd buy you a beer.

 

I'm a little confused if the exchange rates are fixed. If they float, then it's pretty cool. So if there's say four kingdoms in the land and demand for their currency changes based on local economic conditions, this would be interesting. Paper would be a pure fiat currency, anything gold would have a melt value.

 

money in SI was a pain, in reality the only money i really wanted was the gold to buy all the spells from the fortress, by the time i got access to money everyone was dead so there was no one to buy from

 

Multiple currencies + a floating exchange rate may finally be able to determine how much "riskier" it is to adventure in the open-PvP lands.

If used correctly this could be the best idea to date. Bravo @Razimus.

 

Fiat currency would be a bit anachronistic though.

Fixed exchange rates, if there's a purpose, would be to add flavor to the game I assume.

 

I've been mentioning this in the chat off and on for a couple of months now...I'm just disappointed in myself for having to post some long-winded dissertation every time I want to make a suggestion. Anyway, I (of course) think this is a very good idea and I kept trying to sneak it into the dev chats too. Just a few quick points that I think will add to the discussion here.

First, it's not necessarily true that metal-based fiat currency values were wholly based on their melt value. Purity, weight, etc. varied widely, not just between countries, but between the myriad duchies within countries. It's for this reason that coins minted close to home or that see wide circulation are invariably given better standing in exchange rates, not that money changers would give you an even exchange of weight for weight anyway. It's just not possible to know the standard content and weight of every localities' coins, not to mention that it would be easier to pass off counterfeit coinage from foreign locales than the local coin.

Second, the whole concept of currency valuation float is to some degree a modern one. Though currency exchange rates varied because of the above reason, the value of metal coin currency is in fact pegged to the value of the metal in the coins. Coins made of gold will not suddenly have lower valuation than the same number and weight of coins made of silver, just because the silver coins are the local currency. Gold coins have a real intrinsic value based on their materials, modern US dollars and other paper fiat currencies have only a logical or imaginary value. That said, there have been points in history when some metal-based currencies have been so undervalued that they were worth more melted down and reminted as another currency, as it was with Spanish silver coins and US silver dollars immediately following the US revolution. Honestly, that just says more about how much South American silver Spain was flooding into their own monetary system than anything else.

<a href="https://www.shroudoftheavatar.com/?topic=petition-against-the-auction-house-approach/#post-3811" title="Petition against the Auction House approach. ? (Dev) Replied">In another thread/post</a>, I mention that it would be extremely interesting if the game didn't provide coinage to players, and instead player crafters had to mint coins to buy resources from adventurers and for the in-game services (taxation, etc.) to accept. I won't lie, that would be a fairly risky proposition in some ways, especially early on, but it's an idea that captures my imagination.

One thing that hasn't really been discussed is the concept of "dead currencies" being used. Basically, having local currencies, then also having coins that aren't any of the local currencies, coins that belonged to the long-dead civilizations that once inhabited the lands we'll be exploring. These and other coins could just be used or preferred by vendors to the player-owner's liking, or maybe no one accepts them and they have to be sold as a commodity and melted down for their metals, maybe reminted with crafting.

I'm very much in favor of all of these physical conversions, after all it's not just possible in real life, that's how things were done for over a millenia. Even in Roman times, the Goths minted their own coins "hand over fist", and many of the Romans themselves preferred them for their quality. It would also to some degree remove the inflation-inducing dichotomy between the amount of currency in the game and the total value of physical goods in the game by allowing more free conversion of one to the other.

 

If exchange rates, loot and frequency which you need to change currencies are not properly balanced this could get pretty annoying for folks. Multiple currencies offers very little to actual game-play. What it does offer is further immersion and if properly balanced I think could be exceptable.

I think this is less of a gameplay question and more of a story question. So what we should be asking is not how will this benefit gameplay.. but how will this benefit the story? How important is multiple currencies to the story? Unfortunately, since we're not writing the story only Richard and Tracy can really address the question.

If it's significant to the story then I think this idea has a fair shot of being implimented at some point. I just don't see a lot of gameplay value.. but I do see immersion / story value and story supports gameplay.

Personally, I'd like to see this go in if done well. It's something that can be play tested and easily turned off if it doesn't work out. It seems like it'd be somewhat easy to do. I rather liked multiple currencies in SI myself.

 

Would be better with each episode the new continents had a different currency that can only be obtained from that continent. Would make more sense and less hassle to me this way. The towns and cities of each continent use only the currency of that continent.

 

I had thought about how this would be a hassle as well, including for the developers. My idea of local currencies for this game is basically dependent on source/target so that proliferation isn't a huge deal. Three or maybe four currencies is my target number for individual players to deal with.

One or (later episodes?) two common currencies across all continents (e.g. "silver coins", "gold coins"). These are the coins that could potentially be mintable/meltable since they are common.

One or two (or more for first episode, or depending on how implementation works) other 'local currencies' per continent. Something that popped into my head is the idea that there is a major town or region on the first continent for each of the additional continents and that the local currency for that town/region is the currency for that continent.

Another thing that popped into my head is the idea that the taxes have to be paid to the locality with the local currency, and that if the locality offers jobs, it will give you the option of payment in common currency or local fiat currency in an amount valued above the static exchange rate for the common currency. This will make accepting the local currency in exchange for goods more attractive to house vendors and also more attractive to players since they can obtain it naturally more cheaply than it can be exchanged for and may also have a higher valuation locally for buying goods. With more currencies, this also helps tie people to localities and develop a sense of community.

At least one "dead" currency found uncommonly in dungeon or raid-type encounters and/or rarely in deep parts of the underworld. This will be treated mostly like a commodity or a junk item that stacks well so you don't have to deal with hauling around 84 lion faces or goblin shoes or something, and can be sold easily in cities or commodity exchanges for coin or used for other purposes. Maybe player vendors in an underworld town would want to accept this type of coin since it's so isolated from other cities.

And, finally, a crafted "guild currency", which may not actually be used for exchanges at all necessarily, but are crafted by members/leaders of chartered guilds with rank permissions using a key item (like a coin stamp) and I envision it could be used as participation tokens instead of having to manually track things like event attendance or "DKP" in books. They could have "metal content" sourced from bulk metals or from melted gold coins and be traded to non-members, but I don't envision it being a money with an exchange rate equal to its actual metal value or used outside of the guild's bank and general membership.

 

Serpent Isle, yea that is a cool game and I remember it well. Nice suggestion Razimus!

I don't know if I would like to deal with conversion rates all the time in SotA. Good idea, it may just be "too much" all at once.

 

Urganite, I really like all of those ideas.

The global currency and the common "dead" currency could be gold, which was the standard before the cataclysm. Local regional or continental currencies could be used either as alternatives in that location, and/or be required to purchase some commodities. For example, Lord British's realm may only accept Royals to purchase a guild charter.

The guild currency and coin stamp as an alternative to DKP is an awesome idea.

Regional currency could have an exchange value between nations, but with a global currency in place, it would be simpler to require players to convert from regional to gold, and then from gold to the next regional. Local money changers should do this, but give less for foreign currency than when exchanging local.

 

@Urganite I had thought a dead currency might be a bit much but since you brought it up I do really like the idea.. much like dead languages. Anything the players can investigate and discover about the world history in such a heavily story driven game is a plus if done well.

Not so sure about guild currency whatever the function. Though I can't really think of a solid reason not to have it except how well it may (or may not) fit into the story.

 

I'd like to preface this post by saying that I just don't know who or how many of the people here come to this game with a background of heavy MMO playing. So, forgive my entirely too long text.

The thing about a guilds is they tend to have their own internal economy. I can't really explain it as well as if you've been in a medium-to-large sized guild to experience it yourself. Small and medium sized guilds function primarily as <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gift_economy" title="Wikipedia: Gift Economy">gift economies</a>, which helps cohesion and interaction, and of course that's great. Larger guilds tend to form cliques that do things together and have their own group gift economies, but are still held together as a whole for a common goal or interest or want to share in the guild's reputation or access to goods, game content, guild events, things like that.

Members of large guilds may not be especially well known to each other, so the gift economy model becomes one based on reputation and contribution instead of one based on the understanding that the recipient will also contribute later. So, many guilds come up with involved systems tracking guild participation and contribution numerically, on paper, in spreadsheets, on websites, etc., to apportion the rewards of adventuring, commonly referred to as <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dragon_kill_points" title="Wikipedia: DKP">DKP</a> absent any other name for such a system. Naturally, this can conceivably be tracked using in-game books. You know what's easier than tracking sixty guild members' DKP manually in a book, on paper, in spreadsheets, on websites, etc.? Physically giving them the DKP and letting them keep track of it themselves. I won't get into huge detail about why this is totally awesome for large guilds where members trade, sell, and gift items to each other on a regular basis. Just...just know that it is.

Having imagined the system in my head and considering how useful it would have been in all of the other situations where reward apportionment was needed to be done with arbitrary dice roles or difficult to maintain systems like DKP spreadsheets, I find it difficult to believe that it's not a working, foundational system in any other game already.