How to make world PvP ACTUALLY work for role-players/PvEers...

Discussion in 'PvP Gameplay' started by Aduna, Mar 8, 2014.

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  1. Aduna

    Aduna Avatar

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    I'm more of a PvE / role-player type, but I LIKE the idea of PvP. ...just not PvP in computer games. Pen and paper role-play games have always had full world PvP, because if you play a pen and paper role-play game, anyone can attack anyone else, at any time, anywhere, for any reason ...and that's a major part of the thrill and experience. That said, what computer games and especially MMO's lack and what makes them "suck" in regards to PvP vs. pen & paper role play systems, is that the penalty for acting like a villain is significantly reduced. In a pen and paper game, if I attack, say, the local Lord, my favorite character is likely going to be attacked back, or hunted..and if caught, executed. That's a permanent death. So I need to consider my actions carefully. That kind of penalty simply needs to be carried over to the MMO to make full world PvP viable.

    Thus, they way I'd do it, is if you attack a virtuous character, you gain negative reputation. As you can negative reputation, the gods look less favorably on you, and this increases your chance to have permanent death. If you don't have a villainous reputation, you will have a much lower chance of permanent death, if any. If you buy or trade stolen items, you also gain negative reputation. So being a villian with one character to fund another, isn't really going to work. So every PvP encounter, for a villain, could be his death, and spoils are tainted. I don't know any MMO that had a different kind of death penalty based on how a character was played, but I think this would really work, what do you guys think?
     
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  2. Ashlynn [Pax]

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    Permadeath is the only real consequence in an open PvP system but it would need to apply to everyone for it to work properly (and I would say it should also apply to NPCs including shopkeepers and such - players should live with the consequences of their actions).

    The problem is that in a game that is going to be as story driven as SotA, if it had permadeath no one would actually live long enough to make it through the story. =P
     
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  3. blaquerogue

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    In addition to the first post by Aduna, perma death is fine, but i think on the flip side if there is a villainous character good gods favor less and bad gods favor more, so the bad gods would give the villian special abilities etc, and the virtuous one gets favor from the good ones! Just makes sense that way! As far as titles i think whether your good or evil you should gain depending on your actions example "The Vile Ashlynn" The Good Aduna", the saint the despicable etc.... if you are bad by having a title that you must wear others can tell whether your a good guy or a bad guy from first contact, and make decisions accordingly! Had to put you as Vile Ashlynn, just because i think your totally opposite! lol:)

    If you are a bad person then guards should chase you down if your around them, and if a good character happens to go to a city that thrives on the bad then the bad guards should also chase you, Mind that the guards should be a little better than you or I, but not immortal! They should have to go through the combat sequence like us! So its sort of a fair battle! The one thing i didnt like about UO was the fact the guards just poofed on you and killed you right off! (to me that was the only flaw i saw in UO that really mattered!) there was no chance of beating them! That wasnt fair at all!
     
  4. Abydos

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    This a good idea !


    +1
     
  5. PrimeRib

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    Harsh penalties don't work in a computer game. People will find a way to avoid or opt out. Even if this just means rolling the dice a few times and then stopping play when they lose. Somehow there's a reset button or ultimately a walk away button. You want people always vested, always with skin in the game. And these types of mechanics do the opposite.
     
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  6. Aduna

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    I think harsh death penlites would be a just risk vs reward. The reward for ganking is the potential for good, possibly easy loot, and the freedom to kill anyone, anytime. This is a HUGE reward, as anyone that played Ultima On-line will tell you. However, if those same characters suddenly open themselves up to loosing everything, there's a trade off. It's also unlikely that a murderer will be very high level, since chances are, eventually, he' going to die. There may be a few, notorious criminals that have survived, but in such a case, it's actually fun to have those criminals, it adds to the excitement, and their scarcity will add to the realism. If a band of do-gooders want to get together and hunt down a felon in a posse, their efforts will have a real impact if they kill him, instead of just wasting everyone's time. Basically, the choice of a full world PvP ganking exists, it's just got an appropriate, and deadly cost. The cost is just more "thrill" to the would be ganker, so I don't really see it as a bad thing. It sucks to be a ganker and have perma death JUST for you. But you don't have to kill people, either, then you can avoid such a death.

    Now, not that anyone's asking, but I agree that to be more fair, and consistent, I think all death should be permanent, but handled like Star Citizen. But if you didn't want that, the above is still a fair risk vs. reward . That said, Star Citizen offer that each character has a certain number of hidden "lives" and when they expire, the character is dead, permanently. So every time you die, you might live, or, you might die...for good. The idea that you are not just playing one character, but a lineage of characters, or a family, is actually ...far more role-play than to play one immortal character that has to constantly "pretend" their is some reason they keep popping back from the dead. Permanent death also opens neat role-play mechanics like guilds who might change in organization structure as character die, and new ones rise through the ranks?

    But dying permanently is a neat idea until you're on the wrong end of it...but it doesn't have to suck. Like Star Citizen, death of your character would then reset a number of things, maybe lower skills, faction, and it'd be a big bump/loose, but you'd not loose everything. Also, your items could pass to a named heir. Might even be cool to have to create this heir as a second character that then becomes an NPC popping around your house until such time as it becomes active. The heir would not be as advanced as your character, but since it hangs around you, s/he would have some of the same skills, faction affiliations, etc., and inherit your things in the case you ultimately died. Given the world of the game, you could even have to make some business "creating an heir" such as Crusader Kings II, but that's kind of beyond the scope of this thread. If such a death system were implemented, I'd just make it so a person with a bad reputation had notably less secret lives, and the penalty for death was greater, like an d extreme reset, or even no heir.
     
  7. Owain

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    Most players are risk averse, and Portalarium is properly targeting most players as their design strategy.
     
  8. Ristra

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    Permadeath has been tossed around for many many years, the debate never ends. The major factor that always ends the discussions is one simple question.

    You are dead, now what?

    MUDs have used permadeath, I don't know of any graphical persistent world game that has. In the MUDs world, permadeath killed the game.

    Imagine this:
    You are playing a game for years, full aware of permadeath, and your character has become well built. Lots of items collected, wealthy, reputation. For some reason, hacked, bad night drinking, little brother playing your account without you knowing, etc, you find yourself hit with the permadeath penalty.

    Now what? Do you start over? You lost it all. Or do you move on to something else.
     
  9. Dhailen

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    Instead of permadeath when someone kills them just have them filtered out of any instances with people they have killed (baring guild members their guild is at war with if guilded, and PvP zones) so they will never see their victims, and their victims will never see them. Do it by account, so if they delete and remake they still wont see them. Same basic effect as permadeath, but longer and slower. And maybe if they do delete and remake, AND they "behave" for a period of time (6 months, a year, etc) the filter gets lifted.

    Just an idea to bounce around....though Im not a fan of "reputation" mechanics because people always find ways to bend the rules/break game mechanics....but this is a game that is suppose to have virtues in some way or another so there will be something along those lines...and I am very interested in seeing how Portalarium pulls that off.
     
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  10. Trinidad

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    I am very PvP oriented and I would say under such system we would find out really quickly where the limit was at and to make sure we don't breach it and to take effective means to repair your reputation. Another thing I would do is have 2-3 accounts that I could rotate. Likely macro skills up on what will become my next raging murdering bastard.

    I would offer a different solution. I saw this implemented in Angel Island UO and thought it worked really well. When someone is flagged a murderer and dies they resurrect in prison. The only thing they can get access to is a shiv that you can use to take down the guard. The guard would be slightly better armed but not by much so the item you get off him won't be much better. Eventually you break out of your cell block and go out to the yard where there is a small monster spawn and a way out but through the main gate. The main gate would be guarded by so many guards it would be almost impossible to overwhelm or sneak past by yourself. If there happens to be a group, you all can grab your shivs and try to take the guards down and leave through the main gate. Otherwise if you are solo you can kill some monsters that drop 10-15gp each until you have 1,000 gold then use it to bribe the warden in to letting you out. Worst case scenario you get released from jail after 4 hours.

    What I like about this is that if you are a murderer and die you can't be quickly resurrected and reenter battle or reclaim the stuff you lost. It takes time or cooperation in order to get out of prison, time you can't be harassing other players. Unless your whole group got wiped out (enough to overtake the guards outright) you were going to spend some time in jail. A few times I had people sneak up on me and kill me in jail and use the gold I gathered to pay off the warden. Occasionally if I decided to call it a night I would just hide in a corner and leave my client logged in so that I could just get out of jail when logged in again.

    That was one of the best systems I have seen devised to handle PvP / grief problems. It did cost you extra if you were a murderer and died. Prison fits nicely in with the immersiveness of an RPG. It takes some time to get out of the bind. It also throws untrustworthy people in a scenario where they have to trust each other and often get stabbed in the back providing some poetic justice.
     
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  11. Bowen Bloodgood

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    As an RPer I appreciate the effort but the approach is all wrong. It's less about consequences and more about motivation. Why am I attacking this person or why am I being attacked? The RPer and non-RPing PvPer can have very different mindsets and RPers often have rules of engagement that don't apply to non-RPing PvPers.

    RPer playing the brigand: "Hang it over your money or die!" "No gold? Ok die then!" *fight ensues*
    non-RPer... target sighted.. *fight ensues* - RPer being attacked *frustrated at no banter explaining why*

    Of course the reverse could also play out.. non-RPer's response to the RPer "WTF?" *fight ensues* *RPer frustrated*
    non-RPer's response to the non-RPer.. "ha you suck!" *fights*

    Taking some creative liberties of course but no amount of penalties is going to change the difference in mindset. What you need for PvP to work for the RPer is proper context. Why usually prefer our fights to have some kind of meaning for the characters involved and for that the character's need to engage each other verbally (usually). But leave us to our own devices and we'll create that context amongst ourselves and PvP will ensue no complaints.

    The problem as I see it is that the different play styles between RP and non-RP (regardless if it's PvP or PvE) just aren't compatible. If you want the two sides to mingle in PvP then the game needs to provide the context. ie the contraband quest example.

    Speaking strictly in terms of PvE vs PvP the same quests can achieve the same goal with proper rewards in proportion to the risks involved.
     
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  12. Robby

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    I remember this well! It was a very interesting idea. Only "bugs" in the whole idea I thought were the fact that when you first go to that shard, your wondering "what is it like to be in prison". So instantly I go out and try to murder people.. if I cant find enough victims (the shard was extremely low in population) I would have my bro log in with a dummy character for me to get a count with. Then BOOM im in prison. It was interesting you could train your skills and stuff, talk with the other inmates, and yea... Some people just used it as a place to let their counts decay. I also thought it strange that upon death while red you get a message saying that you can either take a skill/stat loss or go to prison... Who would take the skill and stat loss?? Especially when you can break out of the prison in a much shorter amount of time than it would take you to re-build your character.
    It was a very interesting penalty system I think, I just wished it could have been more story driven and stuff with courts, and trials and town crier saying things like "player x just got convicted for murder and is going to prison!"
     
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  13. Trinidad

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    Yes, I think the court system and an announcement from the town crier would be neat additions.
     
  14. Trinidad

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    I disagree, harsh death penalties could only work if there is a reward that is available that is worth the risk. For instance if you and a few friends set out to rob an armored car, which is a very high risk thing to do, but if you did pull it off you could be set for life. Such a risk reward system would be difficult to implement I think. I played UO for 6 years and can only think of a few times where something of substantial value was at risk:

    1. I had bought a large gallion, thought I had deposited at my house but I missed the chest and didn't notice it went back in my bag. Then I went into battle and died and lost it.

    2. We came across some a couple of guys dragging a bag with 60,000 of each reagent in between houses at 3am in the morning. This turned into an epic hour long battle that they won in then end when they got the bag on their property and locked it down.

    3. Our guild house got dry looted on one occasion.

    4. Some one paid us 50,000 gold up front for information where a house could be placed. They were supposed to pay another 50,000 once it was placed but they didn't which wasn't so bad because the location was on the outskirts of a PvP grief guild. We saw him a few months later and told us F#$% you and F&$% that housing spot so I think we came out on top of that one.

    5. I had built an alternate character who was a disarm theif that I was able to use to steal a rare sword out of someone's hand in the middle of town.

    The 1st two were PvP oriented the last 3 were basically fraud or theft which I don't think are addressed but would really need to be. Someone who steals anothers life savings and leaves them destitute is akin to someone who just kills the person outright.
     
  15. Dadalama

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    Power inflation and the recognizability of relative power by how awesome/silly your armor looks has a lot to do with pvp too.
     
  16. Rufus D`Asperdi

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    The only way PvP will work for me is to provide me with the ability to participate or not participate as I will.
    Forcing me to play someone else's game, at a time not of my choosing is NOT FUN, and I will not participate in a product that has this as one of its defining principals.

    Any of the incidents listed above by mipoleon, for example, would have made me quit the game, and the developers would have quit receiving any money from me. In fact, it was similar incidents, and the Threat of similar incidents happening AT ANY TIME that drove me from UO. I am not alone.

    UO had a reputation system... it didn't work... It became a game within the game... Permadeath is not a deterrent because the world is Virtual and threats of pain, punishment, or death carry no weight, especially not with the audience who you're attempting to deter.
     
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  17. Dadalama

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    I took it more as a question in general as opposed to something for SOTA.

    But even as a response to that, look at Salem, it's got it's rough spots and it's griefers but it's actually not too bad with all of that.
     
  18. Trinidad

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    I agree that the grief problem was pandemic in UO and many people left for that exact reason. The question at this point becomes an economic one. If the game is set up so that all PvP is strictly voluntary only, do you get to bring the resources into PvP instance that you gathered while in the friends only. If yes the logical conclusion is that everyone will only do their farming in a risk free environment. This feature was implemented late in UO's life cycle with the additon of Trammel. Since players could farm risk free all that cheap gold flooded the market and a 100gp GM sword went up to 2,000gp in a matter of a few months. This was particularly bad for new players at that time because an orc still dropped 30-100gp each so new players had to kill 20 times as much.

    Also, if there is risk free farming there will be people running farming robots.

    Do you have any idea how to mitigate this?
     
  19. Rufus D`Asperdi

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    Nope... but if the answer is Open World, Unrestricted PvP, SotA will bleed customers just like UO did.



    Quibble... UO launched in 1997... The Felucca/Trammel split happened in 2000, and the game is still running, 16+ years since launch, and almost 14 years since the split, so I would hesitate to say it was implemented late in UO's life cycle. :)
     
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  20. MalakBrightpalm

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    You basically inverted the OP suggestion right off the bat, good job.

    I'd say, NO, it wouldn't have to be applied to everyone, all the time, all you have to do is apply it just like the OP said and it *might* work. Let the PvE only virtuous players play their way, let the PvP virtuous players play their way. Cross the line, occasionally fine. PUSH it, and you risk making a new character.

    The real test however, would be in weather it makes Griefers back off. If it does, then it might just solve the problem. If not, then it's just another unusual aspect of a forced PvP world, and it will still hemorrhage exclusive PvE players.
     
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