Navigation through New Britannia

Yes, I really mean it. I don't know how that can be achieved in an overland map in which you can zoom out and change your direction (if you see something moving) to avoid any encounter. If they find a way to achieve that, I will be very pleasantly surprised. Do you know a game (non turn-based) that have achieved that?

Exploration is a completely different topic, but that is achieved by using fog of war, and it does not matter if you are on the cloth map or on the 3D map.

 

Hehehe up until 4:10AM I was wondering if you had gone a little too over the top there Darkmoon I kid!!

As I've said before the potential of what could have been done on the stylized map was promising. But that same potential can be brought to the return to the original version of the map as well.
As @Mishri and I have said it all comes down to the Functionality.

"The first was that the automatically generated terrain just did not look very good and we literally spent a couple of months trying to make it look better. It was not very flexible and the river and road pathways felt very “canned” and constrained, not natural at all. You can’t tell because of the lower resolution of the videos, but it really did not meet the standards we have for our visuals, especially the water. The next issue we ran into was scaling assets like trees, characters, etc. Simply scaling the assets meant for full scenes ended up looking really bad when they were shrunk down, and in most cases, did not work in that perspective....

• Zoomed out 3D version of the world"

I understand this completely. I've run into this very issue in my professional work as well. Just merely scaling an item does not convey the same feel of the item to the smaller scale. Obviously this is what the Devs ran into. So then the Devs will need to give approximations of what type of terrain is in an area rather than a 1-to-1 representation. However this type of stuff will take time to develop, so why not enlist this LARGE resource that the devs have at hand, the Community, for help with this!! Besides being crowdfunded I thought this game was going to be crowdsourced as well?? Yes, I know there's been scene contests, but why not have the Community help out with something like this as well?! Weren't the Devs bringing on someone to help with the "Crowd-Sourced" issues they've been having from the beginning??

"3D Avatar animating and walking around in the overworld"

I am glad that they've decided to return to the animated avatar. It's is the one thing from the demo that I had wished they would have kept. PLEASE do keep the idea of the Arms on a tabard with the animated avatar though. I really like the idea of showing my Arms and having those that I party with, however rare that always seems to be for me , know me by simply seeing my Arms.

"Another issue we ran into was that the creature AI and pathfinding necessary to make the encounters work had to be completely different than how those systems worked in the main game. This made us very nervous about how much time it was going to take to make two versions of two major systems, so we started considering delaying some of those features until post Episode 1, which we mentioned in a video hangout...

• 3D NPCs animating and moving around the overworld
• Roving encounters that you can see moving around the overworld. If you intersect with them you are pulled into a scene
• Surprise encounters that pull you into a scene."

I can't say I honestly ever recall hearing this issue being mentioned, and I think I've watched all of the hangouts, but I could have easily missed it. Doesn't matter either way. Does this need to be that complicated? Does it need to be more than collision detection to pull someone into a scene (at least initially)?? How else was this envisioned??

• Indicators on map of world state including towns under siege, PVP encounters, etc.
• Terrain Types determine movement speed
• Party members visible on overworld (both moving around and indicators of which hex they have entered)
• Obscurance of unexplored areas (i.e. fog of war or something like that)"

All these things were in the works to be on both style of maps, or were already in place. Keep on those !

What I want to know about is the Functionality.
It needs to have the same functionality that we see in the demo as well:
• Rotate, Pan, Tilt, and Zoom

We also need the functionality that we HAVEN'T seen yet:
• The ability to open up our Bags, our Character Screen
• The ability to open up our Skills and Journal

Being able to do these things will make using the Overhead Map FAR LESS of a detachment from playing in the scenes. And I did say "need" on purpose, as those functions ARE needed.

I'm sure I've left something out, but I'll just reply if I can recall something else I wanted to say.

 

Fun abounds!

And yes, the majority of the functionality from the cloth map can surely be carried over to the 3D as has been stated in the list above.

Yep, with those things added, even if it would have to be post R1, would make awesome additions indeed and make the overland map as robust as can be and the talk of the gaming world.

 

The Neverwinter Nights 2 Addon Storm of Zehir had such a zoomed out 3D overland view with monsters roaming around. If you engaged them or they catched you, you were pulled into a zoomed down area where you had to fight them.

 

I think you're reading way too much into Starr's mention of threats from a very small subset of the community. This change was not made to soothe those people. Those people are scum and not at all representative of the larger group supporting the original map. There were an abundance of threads on the topic, probably too many, but the overwhelming majority of criticisms I read were entirely civil, respectful, and constructive. Polls were done showing an obvious preference for the original map style. The team has ultimately agreed with that, despite their reservations, in exactly the way you mentioned, by weighing it against their knowledge of the tech, budget, and schedule.

I agree that we want to see the game stay true to RG's overall vision, which is precisely why I expressed some dismay at the introduction of the paper map. That wasn't the same experience and vision that RG had so gleefully been showing and describing to us during the Kickstarter phase and the months after. As we can see now from Starr's explanation, that change was driven by technical problems with the initial implementation and concerns about the schedule impact of making the original vision work. I don't think that paper map was ever RG's true vision, but a compromise made out of fear of missing an October release date. I think the fact that Starr's other recent post (warning of possible delays in the release) was met with such understanding and support from the community, combined with some very well-thought out arguments for why the paper map would not work as well, has caused them to reevaluate that position and return to the original vision presented by RG last year. For that we should all be grateful and appreciative, not try to demonize those who argued for it.

 

The worst I would have done would have been selling my original pledge. But threatening and sueing are really way over the top!

 

I can't remember that expansion, but I hope they find a proper way to add "danger and adventure" to the overland map if they are going down the realistic path.

 

I think the roving encounters and surprise encounters will do just that. Nothing like walking along, and BAM! Ambush!

 

Absolutely. All the vids I saw, RG was very excited and thrilled to be demoing the overland map. That just doesn't get scrapped in favor of watching a single video from Dom John of the Space Bards, and the popup paper style is born. There had to have been some serious time/money restraints involved. I think RG loved the original style as much as the rest of us did who liked it as we saw it in the demos.

And yes, now that the game will be delayed as it should be to get everything all in order and not just released before it's ready, the community is absolutely supportive in the extreme. Everyone, wants (or should want) the best game they can get. Sometimes it takes a lot of work and time to realize a vision. But the game will be exponentially better for it in the end.

 

Many thanks and Huzzah to Lord Darkmoon for keeping the faith and championing the original style, to the ultimate advantage of the entire game, in the end.

I was also very, very, vocal about the 3D map.

As I said, post release, it's the odd one out who is going to be pining for that cloth map back. And certainly not new backers. The vast majority will be thrilled that they're getting exactly what they signed up for. Because, after all, that's what we're getting. Exactly what we signed up for. Who would be unhappy with that, I wonder?

 

I simply feel that the reaction to the map was disproportionate. Obviously there are those whose opinions differ. If Portalarium feels they can do what they've advertised without adversely affecting more essential subsystems, so be it. However, the original map was abandoned because of technical and resource constraints that still exist. How are these being addressed? What other features and systems will get short changed to develop this map?

 

Great! I'd not want Lord Darkmoon to feel alone! I'll soak up as much as yer willing to give. Builds character! But in all seriousness...

The game has been delayed to realize more of the original vision. There was no way it was going to make an October release. I knew that when I signed on, and figured they'd be making an announcement. There was no way they could hit that date and do what they want/need to do for Episode 1 by October. Please note that this was stated before Lord Darkstarr made the announcement regarding the shift back to the 3D map.

So, since the game is going to be delayed anyway, why not take a wee bit more time to do it right and go with the original vision?

As for the hows and the technicals, it was discussed by Lord Darkstarr in the original post.

Nothing will get 'shortchanged' to shift back to the 3D map. They will simply take as much time as is needed to get it right. In the end, this makes a much better game. Isn't that what everyone wants?

 

As others have replied, I also happen to be one that mentioned their approval of the cloth map aesthetic. However I only felt it was necessary to mention it once or twice during the whole fiasco. Unfortunately that sort of approach simply cannot stand up against the flood of repetitive comments spewed out by a minority of the more determined members of the community.

Personally, I felt that constantly reiterating my opinion would have be disingenuous to the debate, feeling it was more like the bickering in the PvP threads.


I am a little saddened that the dev team felt the need to bend to I consider to be a minority opinion, and have decided to move away from what I considered to be a distinctive and unique art style.

However I fully expect the game to survive and be better for it regardless. I await the next iteration of that system with great anticipation.

 

Thanks for that great post, Starr.

I'm really pleased that you are going for a 3D map. I love that type of map to show me features and terrain and locations.
I don't care at all about the other 'fluff' such as animated avatars, roving and surprise encounters - that's for the actual game space.

I would be happy with just a red or green dot for me, and other coloured dots for my party members, on the map.

Some people always want more, more, more. I call that The Rolls Royce Syndrome - the man who has a Rolls Royce, also wants a Ferrari.

I'm really happy just to have a nicely scaled, informative map, so if you can save time and effort by cutting back on the fluff, please do.

 

My hope would be that they would use the hundreds of thousands of additional dollars they've raised just since the original decision to abandon it and push back the release date a few months.

But literally every decision to spend time on any feature comes with an opportunity cost to another. You could ask that question about anything. What gets short-changed to implement crafting? What gets short-changed to implement magic? What gets short-changed to implement housing? The bottom line is, decisions have to be made about what's most important. The majority of the community, and now the dev team with full knowledge of the budget and schedule, have agreed that the overland map is not a place to cut corners.

 

Thanks Starr. Great post. Thanks to the whole team. You guys never cease to amaze with your awesomeness (it's a word!).

 

Just because we have now reverted back to the original 3D map/overworld it doesn't mean that the finished version will be universally loved. I didn't like the KS version, im sure it was a quick mockup but i feel if this isn't implemented well, graphically and functionally then it would detract from the overall game alot more so than the cloth map ever could.
I think a very well done overland/map would certainly add to the game but it has to be done very well. Anything short of excellent in this style brings the whole value of the product down imo. And this is going to take time and resources that are already stretched im sure.
I liked the cloth map, yes it had style, it was different, i liked the colours and the direction it was going. Now they have to start all over again with no guarantee it will be any good or people will universally like any more so than what we had as of yesterday.

I thought the campaign for the 3D map was on the whole well argued and was handled alot better than some other contentious issues i have seen here, so hats off to those like Darkmoon that on the whole was vocal but in a good way. The numerous threads was a little off though. I only stated my point once on the cloth map saga, maybe i should have been as vocal as others, point noted for future.
On that note...these forums are heaven in comparison to others, as well we all know.

At least this has shown yet again though that Portalarium are listening to the players, and going out of there way to please us when they know the work and time involved might be better spent elsewhere i imagine.

The map is dead.....long live the overland world or overworld map or plain old 3D map ./

 

Oh well... I was fine with the cloth stile but the team has to decide what's best for them. I really really hope that the opponents of the paper map were not just a very vocal minority and that the ones who were for a change back to 3D won't be the ones who complain when the release date gets pushed back big time.

 

The Dev team has reversed a decision they made to simplify a subsystem of the game, which necessarily means they've had to reprioritize other subsystems with full knowledge of their budget and schedule, neither of which are infinite. If you have 5 cups of water, but only enough water to fill four, when you decide you need water in the fifth cup, the water must come from the other 4 cups. Unless there's a faucet available that isn't apparent. Unless they're dumb, and I don 't think anyone will accuse them of that, they've already judged what they can accomplish with the resources they have... All the resources they have... And this new reprioritization must necessarily suck resources from something else.

I'd like to know where they're being pulled from.

 

Removed the segregation portion of your comment. I'll assume everyone want a better game not just people who supported the old map.

Otherwise good call..

Hey Dev team, can we pick an new arbitrary release date and extend the monthly payment ability to that date? I may just be able to bump up my pledge that way.

Also, a couple of kewl new items in the add-ons section will also likely be bought off made available.

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