Does anyone else HATE the proposed card system??

I have listened to a couple of pod casts now, and I am really not liking the description being put forward so far by Richard Garriott for his initial cut at the combat system.

As I understand it, he has described that before going into combat, I would consider all the skills I might have available, and select from those skills a subset that I will use in a particular fight. If I don't choose a particular skill, that skill is unavailable for the fight. He gives the example of a military unit preparing to deploy, and before going to fight in the desert, the unit would brush up on attacks useful for desert warfare, but not bother reviewing jungle, mountain, or arctic techniques.

I think this is the wrong way to look at the problem. He is describing strategic planning, not tactical planning. In game terms, strategic planning would be, do I want to be a warrior, or do I want to be a mage. That is what is decided before I deploy.

Many years ago, I was in the US Air Force, flying the F-4 Phantom. The way I consider this problem is as if I were assigned to fly a Combat Air Patrol mission to defend a geographic area, and I might encounter either MiG-17 fighters, MiG-23 fighters, or Bear bombers. My combat load is the same regardless, Aim-7 radar missiles, Aim-9 IR missiles, and 20 mm cannon.

While flying in my patrol formation, I encounter a radar contact, and then maneuver to intercept the enemy formation. Once I have acquired a visual on the enemy, I am engaged, and then close for the kill. The small tight turning MiG-17 reacts to my approach with a hard descending turn to negate my radar missile, and deny the opportunity for an IR shot with an AIM-9.

Now if I had gone into that fight and had decided beforehand that I would only use tactics suited for a slow Bear bomber, I would now be screwed, but fortunately, I am not so stupid that I have forgotten everything I know about air combat, and I can employ the correct tactic instantaneously from among everything I know about air to air combat. Further, if a MiG-23 Flogger now enters the fight, I can smoothly switch gears to engage that aircraft with the very different tactics required against a Flogger.

I think it should be the same in this game. I see a single opponent, and I close with sword and shield. As I engage, two more foes jump up.

OH NOES!!! I are stoopid, and can't switch on the fly from a single target attack to an AOE attack.

Nonsense! Who in there right mind could think that THAT would ever make a damn bit of sense?

Please, PLEASE reconsider this very unnatural and counter intuitive combat system.

 

Your example provided was well written and a sufficient analogy for sure, I fear you're going to run into a TLDR situation with most people. I read it all though.

I understand and agree with your concerns here. Based on what we've heard so far, though. I'm not writing the combat system off (not implying that you are) just yet. I too am concerned with scenarios like your example with a 1 v 1 where 2 more jump in. If I've trained a certain skill, that should be at my disposal.

I would really like to see truly classes characters where you can learn/train anything. With a realistic cap, of course. Not saying you should be able to max out every available skill. Which I believe is the direction Richard is going from what I've seen/read. Let me use any and all abilities associated with the skills/talents I've acquired, though.

 

You read it all? Dedication! I like that.

From what I've heard, the skill system will be closer to UO than to WoW for example, so if you want to mix a little magery with your swordsmanship, go ahead. But you won't be an epic swordsman nor an epic mage, but somewhere short (maybe well short) of epic on both. I'm fine with that.

But suddenly forgetting an attack that I know and have practiced long hours to learn. THAT is going to require a hard sell.

 

With respect to TLDR, I'm not trying to convince fellow forum critters. I'm trying to convince the devs. I hope they have sufficient attention spans.

 

I agree completely. I especially like this idea for unexpected attacks; considering it's impossible to change your loadout on a dime; and that a corner stone of a stealthy assassin like character is a surprise attack, would make it incredibly unfair and hard.

 

I agree as well, i want to be a mage i should be able to cast spells using keys on my keyboard that i have set those spells to and i should be able to choose when to cast what. It sounds more automated than actual skill based so far but well see.

 

I kind of presumed it would be a bit like secret worlds combat system. You can have every skill in the game under one character but only a limited number would be selectable. While there are situations where you pick a sword for a gun fight I don't see how you can run one avatar who can experience the whole world but not become a uber warrior Mage archer. In secret world you had the option to do everything but not all at once and also led to some ingenious combat bars and rotations and a real reason to hit the training dumbies. While you were locked in once combat had started this only lasted for the duration of that fight and could be switched and tweeted once you'd won or lost. I appreciate the analogy but as I say secret world allowed you to hedge your bets and be a good all rounder but also to specialise. If you know the mobs coming up are vulnerable to magic why not go 100% magic. I know it sounds odd but I loved secret worlds combat system and would be over the moon if this had similar

 

Pillowsoft, if I understood LB correctly, you won't be able to learn everything about everything. I can learn some swords and some magic, but you won't be as good a swordsman as someone who specializes in swords, nor as good a mage as a pure mage.

We need further clarification on that score from the devs.

 

I'm sure they don't know for sure yet because balancing will be a big focus later at beta. They are definitely avoiding Jack of All Trades all-powerful characters which is good.

 

Owain, I watched the last video that was posted said we wouldn't have alts but would be able to do everything we wanted so I presumed it would be a system where we could switch to different roles

 

Clarification is necessary. I heard them say that you couldn't be an uber craftsman and an uber warrior as well, so it sounds like there will be skill caps. We'll both need to wait to see what the devs have to say, assuming even they know for sure at this stage of development.

 

I think one of the intentions of the proposed system is to make preparation and resource management important. I suspect magic users will operate along a D&D style vancian system too.

One of the dangers though is that it can be too restrictive or, even if there's a huge list of different abilities/skills/spells to choose from, people just pick the same half-dozen each time because the rest are useless/underpowered/highly situational/etc.

 

Ashlyn - this was one of the good things about the secret world system you had trees based on weapons so if you wanted shotguns and blood magic weapons that limited your choices and affected the playing style. A bit like trees in wow but being able to be a rogue one day and a Mage the next. I'm not great with a million and one choices or theory crafting but it made me feel I had the world at my feet but wasn't intimidated by it

 

I've been rethinking my original post (yes the too long to read one), and maybe Garriott's analogy is better than mine. To continue with my analogy, I might have a full air to air load on my jet, and once on the tanker, I get a radio call that I've been retasked to bomb a fuel storage facility.

"Negative, Ghostrider, I'm loaded with air to air missiles, not bombs". So now I have to return to base, download the missiles, upload a full bomb load, take off again, and proceed on my new mission.

I think this is what LB has in mind. So, until I learn more, I am reserving judgement on the combat system. Lord British just might have more insight on Role Playing Game Design than I do.

What do you know?

 

Who's to say they won't have several slots for you to preset for a particular type of combat? That way you can switch back and forth between the modes with a click or with a keystroke. Maybe even a beginning of the combat move list, and switch over to an endgame combat set of moves.

I think it sounds interesting. Who wants to continue to play the same games repackaged over and over. Bring on something new!

 

I like the idea of a system like Secret World with a twist to make it more of a deck system. To have 7 slots to hotkeys but once you use a skill, it goes away and is replaced with a random skill from your deck of 30 skills you set up prior to combat. If you made it to you could have duplicate skills of skills you want to show up in the rotation more often, and had a usage bar so more powerful skills couldn't be used one after another, it would make for a nice interaction in combat. For example, have an available pool of 10 points that regenerated as you fought, then have a simple slice cost 2 points, a thrust cost 1, and wirlaround slice cost 8...if you didn't have 8 available you would have to dodge and block until your pool regenerated giving the sence of a person who defends and evaluated what he wanted to do next. it would give a choice but keep the concept Lord British talked about by missing a good hit because you were caught up in the heat of battle. Kind of a TCG with a deck skillbased system.

 

I think you could simplify this method by being able to create builds for certain types of scenarios and have them either hot keyed or in a menu that would allow you to quickly set the your skill set upon going into battle this would be akin to playing a first person shooter where every time you die you get to select a weapon set you have set up but won't allow you to change it in battle. this method would give a bit of balance to the preparation vs spontaneity. I think a small limit of builds is suitable depending on the amount of skills available.

 

I agree with Owain regarding his concerns. However, I feel like we have a severe case of jumping the gun here. I trust Richard to create a game that has a system which is intuitive, fun and makes sense. I think the system he is describing is one where we can select the skills which best fit our play style, not so much the fact that we will anticipate exactly the type of skills that we will need. However, if you're going to be hunting dragons, you're more likely to want to bring abilities that focus on shielding you from fire damage, rather than a variety of other abilities that may not see any use.

I am sure that we will not be restricted to only less than a handful of skills, therefore the variety that Owain wants will still be there.

Let's not forget that this game will be majorly funded by fans, and thousands of us will be able to play the alpha and beta versions. If the system is truly not fun, clunky or outright stupid, there will be plenty of opportunities to voice those concerns and request that changes are made.

Good post, and well written analogy, btw.

 

I actually saw a video where he said the words shortcut keys so hopefully that will clear a little bit up http://youtu.be/6RawpdadJrY?t=6m23s

 

From what I've seen so far, and could be completely wrong... I am thinking it will be sporatic, so to speak. When you are fighting... hit a certain button and jump left/slash... hit another button, try simply to undercut with a sword... hit the wrong button, or miss a button, and the opponent is likely to be grabbing your hand/elbow, then down cut. I dunno if that is at all accurate and the demo looked nothing like that, but that is what it sounds like. If so... every girl in the world will think it is too complicated. We'll see in the upcomming videos. But, either way.. not playing anything that's not a mmorpg with equal fun for girls chars and older players. If I wanted a single player game, Diablo 3 would still be on my playlist... which it is absolutely not. Hated that game.. skill trees and single player sucks in 2014. Blizzard destroyed Diablo. :*(