Friendly fire.

Ok, my understanding:
The OP is asking for more strategic combat, no button mashing of AoE spells, etc., specifically in regards when playing in FPO mode, and not even asking for this in OPO.

So...I have to ask...uhm, don't spam AoE spells when fighting with friends in FPO? What's the difference if they take damage or not, or whether you take damage from them spamming it? You and your friends will know right away if you or anyone else is just spamming AoE spells. If that's how you want to play, keep spamming. If you don't like the other player spamming AoE, drop them from your friends list. This is FPO after all. You chose to play with them. You can just simply ask them to stop spamming AoE?

Yes, we know that the devs could implement a FF option specifically for FPO mode. But it's more complicated than just that, given how death, killing, and the virtue / karma system is tied to everything. They would need to code all of that to take into account this FF option in FPO mode...and to do what? To ignore FF attacks or FF kills, but only in FPO? You need more concrete solutions than just asking for an FF flag in FPO to control combat tactics -- which are entirely player driven. Talk to it in terms of those things, if not other side effects.

Clearly, FF in OPO is a much more complex issue. That will deserve a separate post / topic all on its own.

 

"So?I have to ask?uhm, don?t spam AoE spells when fighting with friends in FPO? What?s the difference if they take damage or not, or whether you take damage from them spamming it? "

I think your list of friends would soon grown thin if you make a habit of frying both friend and foe alike. If you want to run the risk of alienating your friends, go for it. Personally, I don't like to hang with dumb people, and I consider friendly fire to be pretty dumb because it is unnecessary.

 

Why do I see @Illesac and @Owain in all the relevant topics. Once again, I must agree. FF a must. It's scary to be reading these boards and see how many people still want a game that requires no user skill, no reaction time, no strategy, or thinking. Really people? Again, a RPGs goal should always be to provide a fun, realistic environment. How can aoe spells not hit everything in the aoe? It's counter-intuitive to say the least.

@Ashlynn_Ler "Anyway. Friendly fire is a great idea but it collapses in practice when you add other people (who are NOT YOUR FRIENDS) to the mix."

I disagree, if you're silly enough to cast a fire wall in a public area you should be tagged as an attacker when I run through it xD. Be smart with your actions. I'm pretty sure when you were just a mageling you're masters taught you to be careful with your spells. Then again, maybe not.

Ned888 "As a real time combat game (shown in the videos) there is no way that FF could be implemented so that it did not upset every single player in the game, excepting of course you guys who enjoy killing other players."

Or you can learned to be skilled and precise with a powerful attack. Something that often separates the food from the prey. Practice, effort, failure, and eventually success is all part of this. Not spamming f4.

Many of us want a higher brow game, a realistic fantasy adventure, that almost invariably involves fighting more than monsters in nearly all format; games, books, movies, etc.

@Owain "and tossing a grenade in close proximity to your squad mates is considered poor form." I have to admit I actually LoL'd a bit.

 

In an effort to try and prevent the good ole run into a fellows FF to make him grey I believe magic spells should have the ability to be 'un-summoned.' I wanted to use the word dispel but that was used to actually summon a creature in UO so didn't want to cause confusion. As for spells like earthquake that impact an area you better be yelling "frag out" because everyone in an earthquake zone gets hit, even the caster if he's dumb enough to cast it beneath himself.

 

Friendly fire would only work if it does not allow for exploits such as those "jokes" mentioned above. As much "fun" as it would be to flag a caster as a PK by running into his wall of flame, it's ripe for exploits and griefing.

The friendly fire option would work if it only applied to other players already in the line of fire, i.e. the target (area) of the attack. For an AoE spell, if you walk into the area after it has been cast, nothing should happen to you. That doesn't apply for NPCs and MOBs -- they will be affected whether they were in the area or walked into it after. Exploiting MOB pathfinding can be fixed via AI changes. You can't fix player behavior.

 

If you are able to damage other players who aren't hostile to you, wouldn't that effectively be non-consensual PvP, which RG already said won't be in the game?

 

@Rydel: Correct, that's why if in OPO, this would only apply in PvP zones.

 

@smack "Friendly fire would only work if it does not allow for exploits such as those ?jokes? mentioned above. As much ?fun? as it would be to flag a caster as a PK by running into his wall of flame, it?s ripe for exploits and griefing.

The friendly fire option would work if it only applied to other players already in the line of fire, i.e. the target (area) of the attack. For an AoE spell, if you walk into the area after it has been cast, nothing should happen to you."

Or once again. Be aware of your surroundings, if you are in a crowded dungeon with other players, you probably shouldn't be casting AoE spells. It's simply a matter of paying attention to the world around you and responding to it in an intelligent fashion. If another group of 3 people are fighting nearby, common sense would say don't drop a nuke near them.

What you're presenting is a situation where you are basically griefing yourself by playing foolishly. Will griefing happen? Sure. Will it happen at the rate you suggest? Only if you play with the intelligence of a cave troll. In which you shouldn't have access to powerful magery, perhaps a large club? It takes, skill, timing and finesse. Again, not a spam the button fighting style we're looking for here.

 

I understand why people want FF. I've certainly argued it for myself. But it doesn't work in a game where there's anything like PUGs. That dumb player who tosses grenades at his own team <i>will</i> be in your group. When you question him or make him mad, he'll just dig in and do it deliberately. If you could really only run pre-made of good friends in vent vs another pre-made then it works. But this would eliminate 80% of players. It's a nice idea. I get it. It doesn't work with PUGs.

It's why WoW eliminates half the mechanics to boss fights in the lfr (pug raiding) system. Unlike normal raiding, it's set so 1-2 people can't screw up the raid.

 

@smack, "As much ?fun? as it would be to flag a caster as a PK by running into his wall of flame, it?s ripe for exploits and griefing."

Is that really grief, or is that punishing you for carelessness? In an open PvP environment, which is what we are talking about, you have to be aware of your surroundings. Firewall, Blade Spirit, Poison Field all had their uses, but they had to be used with care.

It would be one thing if you were unaware of possible consequences of careless use of an AOE spell, but the consequences were well known.

 

UO had spells like Fire Wall and Poison Field that were FF, but no one ever used them. Perhaps because the AoE for those spells were too long time-wise?

I'm not really for FF, but not against throwing a few of those spells in there..

 

@An Corp, Fire Wall and Poison Field were actually not bad for PvE, since mobs would frequently get in the effect and couldn't figure out how to get out, so they'd walk back and forth through the field taking a lot of damage. You had to be careful if other players were present because people would intentionally flag themselves and attack you. They were ineffective in PvP because players would avoid them or get out of them before taking much damage, so a direct damage spell would be more effective.

 

FF should be in game in my opinion, but I would hope they limit AOE to the minimum. Whether by implementing a tiny area effected, or large reuse timers.

Looking at how Eve Online handles AOE and FF, until a couple of years ago it was possible to kill thousands of players with a single click of a button using a 300KM x 300KM AOE weapon attached to the Titan class super capitals. The reuse timer was 30 minutes.

As the number of Titans increased in game, the players would field multiple titans. It got to the point where the number of players required to kill a single Titan, would cause enough lag that a hand full of Titans would be enough to AOE kill wave after wave of attackers on a duty cycle, often before those players had even loaded their surroundings after warping onto the battlefield.

I remember at one point for fun one of the super block of alliances fielded 20 - 30 Titans, and were able to generate enough AOE damage to kill capital ships designed for destroying heavily armored targets.

Rather silly stuff. The point I'd make after telling this story, is that AOE in PVP situations is not fun or fair if its a commonplace occurrence. Even if the game developers make it exceedingly difficult to do, the players who have the means or know how will band together and do it regularly

I'm all for PVP, and even support open world PVP in a similar way to how its achieved in Eve Online, but after my experience in Eve I am not in favor of AOE as an effective means to PVP.

 

Has anyone really talked about possible CC spells/skills? AoE could have a really nice place in PvP with skilled gamers in a group with CC mechanisms available to them.

Seems to fit in well with this discussion because many games have AoE CC even if you want to go something as simple (but powerful) as web in BG or IWD. AoE roots/snares followed by AoE dmg could be a devastating tool used by a skilled cohesive unit.

 

I don't like the thought of FF.

That was only allowed really if you were in the same guild in UO

FF has the chance of getting out of hand at times and has also been known to be the cause of grief to fellow
gamers.

 

@Solace Vale "FF has the chance of getting out of hand at times and has also been known to be the cause of grief to fellow gamers."

But that just goes back to the question of who should be protecting us.

1) Do we protect ourselves by using common sense?

2) Do the programmers protect us because people who refuse to use common sense complain after casting offensive AoE spells 2 feet from a PC?

Personally, I'm all for a game that requires me to appreciate the consequences of what I'm about to do.

 

@rschultzy80

I can see your point, but I can see it now, the "oops! Sorry, I cast that too close to you" line being used alot.

I just think it would bring more grief then joy.

 

Well I would think the "griefing" would come more from "oops, to bad for you, you just cast that too close to me" cause now you're flagged as an attacker. Generally speaking, a direct damage spell would be much more useful if I intend to grief/PK you. I hope I explained that well enough.

But let's not talk about IF FF should be allowed. Let's talk about how awesome we can make it WHEN they do implement it for us gaming purists. = ?

 

Nuff said.

Move along, these aren't the droids you are looking for.

=)

 

I know you already have all the support in the world for Friendly Fire but I would like to express my own interest in Friendly Fire with a game I have been playing most recently. DotA 2 has a few hero's with abilities that affect team combat. Faceless Voids Final ability encompasses everyone in a sizable radius in a time bubble to explain it simply. Anyone caught in this time prison is frozen for a short duration while Faceless Void is freely roam inside or even attack anyone. This can be extremely powerful spell when placed accurately encompassing just the enemy team or it can be a extreme disadvantage by encompassing your own team. my point? FRIENDLY FIRE! ;].