PVP & Death: Current Thinking Megapost

KillingJoke, The Adventuring player is for hunting and warfare, the crafting skill minded player, is for transforming raw material into goods and economic warfare...

To each task and skill set, there own...

No man should be a island, but some can become peninsulas

~Time Lord~

 

Haha, i disagree, the land of the free states we can become an island if we choose. That way, we have all of our sides protected, without a fear of Tyranny! Let me now get back on topic.

 

No, but if they are making a living selling crafted goods faster and cheaper than those who are crafting because they are looting them AND looting crafting materials faster than any one gatherer can gather, they can easily undervalue the market making it worthless to be a crafter.

 

Well, free open market.... And i assume you never really played a pk/war type player back when this game style was popular?
I never, ever , saw any pk/pvp players getting rich off selling looted materials. That really is a silly claim. No way that looted materials
will effect the market place in this game... Why?

War guild players wont be carrying high $$ market rares with them. (Unless they are just bat crazy then they deserve to lose it)
If they die, most of the loot is going to be used for a continuing life of war, not taken to the market and sold.

The full loot is only in effect for guild vs guild wars, no other part of the game is changed from the original plan (as of today)
Why even debate it with me, or anyone that sides with this idea? I doesn't sound like your the player that's going to be on a war stone anyway? Nothing wrong with that, but why fight to change something, that has no effect on your game experience what so ever? No way guild vs guild war looting will have a major negative effect on the crafting market. Silly stance....

 

I can completly agree with this.

When I used to dry loot people I used to put all the armer and items into a chest that I would use myself as spares for when I got looted. Every so often I would loot something that I could sell.

No PK ever got rich from PKing.

 

If they don't wear their high $$ market rares then why have them. If there is no chance of looting high $$ market rares then why bother looting?

 

You must not have been there, then.

http://looterslair.com/uo-episodes/neutral-galad/never-wear-valorite-in-deceit/

http://www.pvpblog.com/post/Ultima-Online-Weird-Stuff.html

Lots of people got very rich during the Red-PK days. That was a huge incentive for that playstyle; it was much easier than crafting or killing dragons.

 

A rich PK! Now that is 'rich'!!!

I will tell you what a rich pk was (i'm sure you already know) A full bag of regs, a set of AR that was not bone, a good wep, a living mount, and some pots. The reward was killing another that had more of the same, so you could continue on fighting.

That effects the world craft market? Ha! Ludicrous.

 

It very much does. If all you are doing is exchanging gear as loot then you aren't purchasing from a crafter. The first guy buys it, then how many hands does it go through before it is destroyed and someone visits a crafter again? And you aren't going to loot crafting materials?

And assuming my PVP experience, or anyone else's for that matter, is not a good idea. You will find that even many who don't seem to want PVP have years of PVP experience. They just don't agree with certain ideas on PVP.

 

Ok, in an attempt to bring the 2 camps closer, what can we agree on, instead of disagree on?

The pve people have to decide what incentive would make them flag for pvp. What style looting would effect them for pvp.

The Pvp people need to decide on whether they want to entice people to try pvp, or try to enter the pvp zone. Do they want to dismiss them and tell them to go away, or do they try to build up the pvp player base. Or do they just want to grief.

So, keeping negativity away, please try to focus on what would work for both, as a majority. Nothing gets accomplished by endless banter back and forth with closed minds.

 

For mat's to keep fighting. penalty, reward. That is what it takes to make a game that's not watered down, easy, boring. The exact reason so many games fail these days.

The reason UO was epic was its always changing game play experience, water it down, make it easy, once you see the whole game, kill all the monsters, run all the dung's, whats left? Boring....If you have a game that changes daily, due to unforeseen risk, you have a winner. Hope the Devs get this soon, or they will be stuck with a group of players that stay for 6 months, then leave for something else new. The risk, reward, is what keeps the game fresh over a long period. Remove that = no end game = death. IMHO

 

I hope you don't think i have a closed mind? I fight for both sides, no right no wrong answers here. I agree lets focus on the fix!

I will say again, if your a craft/pve player, great, the full loot on a WAR guild stone wont ever effect you.
If your a pvp player and want hard core action, get on or create a war guild stone
If you want just a little pvp action without the major looting risk, enjoy going into the pvp zones, that offer some protection to your goods.

Only argument i have heard negative about this idea is the full looting will effect the crafting sales market. And i know from experience, that is complete ka'ka! [:

Craft players in UO made the money, war mongers and pks never made anything close to a full time craft/trainer/map hunter/ etc etc player. And if you played the game you know full well, no guild war ever effected the craft/hunter market to a point they starved for gold....Silly

 

Yes, that is your Opinion. An opinion not shared by me, and I suspect many others.
The content can become old but to many people in that play mmo's, its not just about the content, its about the community.
Risk vs reward is only good for a couple visits from a fresh player getting ganked and dry looted. Then he becomes some one bitter about pvp. Thats why in the case of UO. You have the same 4 people fighting at yew gate, at dastard, and champ spawns. They wait there by the gate, salivating at the thought of new pray, that gets less and less likely as time goes by.

 

No, I was not pointing fingers at anyone hehe. And that is some good ideas right there. The argument about full loot from pve players is because they really do not want to loose anything they work for. This is probably the biggest dillema, that and being belittled by seasoned veterans. Honey not vinegar

 

One problem.......The only people that can get dry looted with my system is those that CHOOSE to play that style. So people that want that hard core lifestyle can't have it because you don't want it? Then don't get on a war stone, live and let live.

There are plenty of old school guilds that won't even play this game if its watered down. The objective is to find a middle ground so everyone can enjoy it, no matter what the game play style is. If you don't like war/looting/ then don't get on a war stone. Debating for something that effects others cheerios, and wont effect yours is just something i don't understand.

If my guild wars another guild, and we loot each other silly, what do you lose? Nota! Unless you want to tell me if i pick up a free bag of regs, and good sword, and some pots, i'm runing the game market for craft type players. Then i say craft type players are ruining the game for anyone that wants to play a hard core, war style mmo by controlling the market price....Round and round....silliness.

Both sides should be happy with this loot system...Unless they just want to be a shellfish! HA!

 

You almost make good sense but leave bad tastes in peoples mouths with the little belittling quips. Yes the object is to find the middle ground. I do not care if there are plenty of old school guilds that wont even play, because they are not here, talking about this. Unless you are there royal ambassador.
They are not showing up for the fight so to speak. The whole point is to try to merge the camps, so both sides have to bend a bit. You cant say you dont want it watered down and expect pve to take interest.

 

There might be a missing variable in the entice people to PvP equation. What if there there is a point where PvP enticements reaches a critical mass before becoming too crazy? Even though everybody in UO was PvP before Trammel the focus of the game wasn't all PvP. So in sota terms they were all flagged by nature, but there weren't PvP only resources and pvp goals YET.

We can think about enticing people, and keeping regulars happy, but I loved to PvP in UO and I quit after they came out with the 4 factions. For me it got too hectic (everywhere in the world). Maybe it was the complexity of having 4 factions, but also the sheer numbers of people fighting everyplace I went, it was insane, and it was no longer possible to go out fighting alone without guaranteed death within an hour, and escape was no longer an option due to the gang attacks. Whereas I could some times go out and PvP for a week straight without getting killed before that.

I had enough resources to replenish my guy if I died once every day or so, but if I died once every hour or two (while being an experienced PvPer) I didn't find that fun at all, and I surely didn't have the resources to continue doing that. Also the old PvP experience of fighting order vs chaos was all dried up because they were all involved in faction wars.

So maybe it is possible to have too much fun PvP "activities" going on that can turn off the PvEers, and also make some PvP people unhappy as well. So it may be possible to have fun even if EVERYBODY was flagged for PvP, but if there is too much "PvP objectives" maybe that could be a problem. I believe there might be a horizon line as to when PvP objectives might cross from being fun to being to crazy.


EDIT: Keeping crazy to zones might be good. I like open world PvP to be able to travel alone and find a fight from time to time, but crazy everywhere is a problem I might want to avoid unless I'm in a strong group.

 

I agree 100%. No need to make it so complicated.
I see three options
1: No pvp game play, based on crafting, hunting etc
2: A mix of both, some pvp some hunting/crafting etc. (this is covered as designed now in the zone pvp sections with what ever they decide to do with looting in these zones)
3: hard core option, if your guild declares war, your open to attack and full on looting from the enemy guild players.

I really think that covers it, it offers something for everyone, without effecting the whole. No reason to make it any more complicated then that, it covers all the play styles 95% of the people will want. The other 5% are from mars, and who cares about them anyway haha! JK i like aliens too!

Think about it, is a hard core pve/crafter player going to debate having a flag option on the guild stone for full on war, if they never plan to hit that flag anyway? Guess some might, just for something to complain about. no real reason not to have the option for those who enjoy that style, except greed.

EDIT: I think the pvp zones as designed now, covers the casual pvp players itch for excitement, with out the hard core price of death. If your going to suit up, and go hunt people solo, there has to be some risk, that's why i like the limited looting for those players. The cost of death is not as hard core as full on war. Nothing is perfect, we both know. But i still think this is a very good middle ground, without excluding the left and right, so to speak.

 

Please keep in mind, as we speak, the Devs are enjoying kicking the living crap out of each other in pvp testing!

You can take that to the bank.

 

What if the guild wars can also be for non PvP guilds that want a little excitement. Why not have the ability to declare the type of war you want? What if some want the full PvP experience that includes the looting mechanism, and others want a guild war that has NO looting?

Open PvP through out the entire world (for those who are flagged PvP) will allow people to just go about their business, but always be on guard. As long as the whole world isn't war crazy then the risk would be the standard possibility of running into some scumbags that try to rob you while you go hunting for food, or coming back from clearing a dungeon out of vial evils.


EDIT: Then of course there will be special PvP only zones, where there will be considerable violence, and possibly group warfare going on. These would be places best not traveled alone unless you are really NINJA.