PVP & Death: Current Thinking Megapost

Alright personnally, i dont care about loosing all my inventory or even my equipment on my caractere...Im used to pvp a lot in ultima online and many other games. As far as i know we will be able to craft everything and not only crap items. We will be able to have house, bank and other mean to stash some items....so if the economy of good and we can craft armors, items and weapons...what is the problem of loosing everything when you get killed in pvp. This debate can live forever between pve and pvp. Trying to blend both is probably the most difficult task the DEV gonna need to do. But a lot of people here will agree with me in saying that the most exciting pvp experience was a game like Ultima online. With murderers and Dread lord fighting against Glorious Lord. Smiths were doing nice money with their stuff on sale. Even PVE gentlemans were searching to hire some glorious lords , just to make sure that Deceit was free of murderers and dread lords before going in. PVE players were excited about doing a plan to go in dungeon without being catched by roaming Murderers. Whatever guys, it was the old time and i hope they wont miss the boat with this nice game.

 

The problem is I spent months gathering materials to craft Dhailen's Piked Warhammers of Squirrel Smiting and my my studded leather armor made from squirrel fur and acorn shells, and it should take you more than one fight to win it from me.

"Fear The Squirrel "

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Actually, that doesn't exactly bother me, but it does lead to my issue with full loot. You shouldn't be able to loot what you weren't willing to risk. Don't sit at my $100 a hand poker game with $10 in your pocket and think you have the right to play just because you are "skilled". Don't bring a fight to me wearing off the shelf gear when I'm wearing gear that takes many hours to replace (not because it's "uber" but just because it's the armor I want... Which means it's rare and I want it to stand out) and think you should have a shot at taking it. If you win, great for you and sucks for me, if I win it's a waste of my time, and the lose to you is minimal. Not worth my effort if full loot is in the game.

Which brings me to an idea that has been rolling around in my skull recently. Let the Oracle be "the house". When you got to the Oracle to flag you "ante" what you are willing to lose (and by proxy what you are able to win). The Oracle holds those items and you go out and PVP. If you win you get the other player's ante up to what you ante max (which is added to your ante until you go pick it up). If you lose, you lose your ante up to the other player's ante (if it is less). If you have ante left you can keep pvping. Maybe even, once you have done the Oracle quest, you will have special slots in your bank to place your ante so it's the same bank run to get back into pvp (just placing gear instead of regearing). Also if you can get back in the fight before they can get to the bank and pull their winnings you can take them out and get your stuff back.

 

Here is what Ristra put up a while ago I think its flawless in terms of full loot or no loot...
"PvP Loot suggestions:
When viewing the corpse to loot all items should show generic names.
All consumables, reagents, and resources show ruff quantities. (few, several, lots, etc)
There is a limited amount of time to loot a corpse. Once the dead player has revived there would be no corpse to loot.
The location of the item being looted will have impact on the amount of time it takes to look the item(s). (removing equiped armor takes longer than armor in the pack)
The quantity of an item will increase the looting time.
Example:
Player 1 (P1) is killed by Player 2 (P2)
P2 scrambles to loot the corpse. After examining the corpse P2 finds;
1 full set of studded leather armor (equipped)
1 standard short sword (damaged from death in PvP combat)
1 jeweled dagger
Several animal hides
Lots of food
3 pairs of leather boots (in pack)
P1 is now a ghost. Does P1 run to the nearest resurrection point. Does P1 get resurrected by someone (P3 maybe)
The looting process is over if P1 resurrects.

P2 must decided between taking the time to loot, stopping someone from resurrecting P1, or dealing with allies of P1 attempting to keep P2 from looting P1.
If all is clear and P2 is able to loot P1 then P2 must choose what is worth the time to loot, time is limited.
Equipped studded leather will take a while to loot.
Standard short sword, damaged, may or may not be worth looting.
Jeweled dagger, may be a good weapon or at least worth holding for ransom.
Animal hides, not too many, should be a quick loot.
Food, there is a lot, P2 could take it all or a portion depending on how much time P2 wishes to spend looting food.
Leather boots (in pack) quick loot, grab and run.
The intent here is to give P2 a real choice in the looting process. The ransom system does not need to be tossed out but it should be in the hands of the victor not the corpse. With less info to go on, P2 will be given the choice to attempt for a quick payout (ransom).

P2 could put the jeweled dagger up for ransom and P1 accepts. P1 could refuse and P2 takes the dagger. Then it's a gamble if the dagger is of value (taken to an NPC for identification or possibly a PvP skill to be used out of combat after looting)
P2 could outright take the dagger and not offer the ransom."

 

I Love this idea!

 

why do people complaint so much on PvP looting?
I understand that sometimes you have a really expensive item and you wouldn't want to lose it. that's understandable and all but if you don't want to lose it don't take it to a pvp area. Ultima Online Was the best MMO because of the suspense it had when you saw a pker or when you died and saw people looting your corpse as a ghost lol....
Back then people used to go pvp naked or with just a robe. whoever was Gm (skill point at 100) smithy made leader armor or plate for their owned char for really cheap. but the suspense it had was at another whole level. If you never experienced 97-2001 UO I don't think you'll ever understand us, maybe by reliving those experiences you would know of what I speak.
If you have a really expensive item just stay where it's save and you won't lose it, is that simple guys.
PvP should be for people who's skilled. Think about it, what's the fun if you're able to kill someone in 2 to 3 hits because of your expensive gear? that's only good for PVE c'mon now.

Those who played UO will agree with me... I'll be fine with whatever this game end up to be because I know they'll get it right and fun again.

 

I agree Lord Scooby, but fact is there are too many casuals in games now-a-days than there ever was back in pre UO-R. That being said I understand full loot not being around but no loot is a complete buzzkill to pvp, IMO. So when I read Ristra's idea is probably the best compromise that is plausible for pvp'ers to agree to. Especially since pvp'ers are the ones that will be doing pvp the most, meaning this compromise, IMO, should sway more to pvp'ers than casuals and pve'ers.

 

It is a bad assumption to make that those that don't like pvp as much as you is a casual.

 

It also is a bad (and demonstrably false) assumption to think that people who played UO pre-Renaissance agree with you, Lord Scooby--obviously, not everyone did.

 

So you're telling me that even tho you playes uo for so long you still didn't lk ke the idea of looting corpse?
My guess was that you wasn't a big fan of pvp bro.
I'm just saying, they going to have PvP areas where people choose to actually pvp. People don't have to go full equiped with expensive armor or weapon but go as everyone else.
All Im saying.

 

You're right; they will have areas where people choose to pvp. CHOOSE to pvp, as you say. In early UO, there was no choice for the victim, and that fact alone makes this entirely different from that game. It's nothing like it at all. People who think it will be like UO are daydreaming; the fact that pvp is by consent only assures that it will not be. It will be all wolves on wolves, like Darkfall or something else, not UO, where sheep could be victims.

By the way, I do like PvP and have posted so on these boards and look forward to PvP in SotA. I also look forward to its being consensual, unlike early UO. I don't care too much how they do loot; it's unlikely that we'll lose anything that matters whatever the loot system is, so, whatever.

 

Whats funny is those "sheep" also chose to risk playing the game in order to have there kind of fun wether that was pvp or pve or both.

 

I'm sorry if I made you mad rune_74 & kronides. I inserted "in my opinion" (IMO) twice on the post, because it's simply that just my opinion, and what I've experienced through my years of gaming. Obviously I'm not right, but I'm not wrong since theres no legitamate proof that's valid.
- sry for makin this post off topic xP

 

They chose to risk it, until they had options... Whether it was Trammel or another game (Everquest and Asheron's Call early on). I love PVP. I played every form of pvp game out there before UO... FPSs, turn based and real time strategies, card games, you name it... The difference is, in all those games, you win one, I win one, we are back to even... In UO that wasn't true, I never expected to see so many "hard-core pvp" players so afraid of losing something of value that they never carried it.... I never looted anything anywhere near the value of what I lost. After a few times of going back and getting the material and gold to get my gear replaced, then realizing the only way I was going to get any reward for pvping was to attack those least interested in pvp (gatherers mostly), I decided that style of pvp is flawed and not for me. Since then I've been waiting for a PVP system where the aggressor has to risk something of at least equal value to what they expect to gain. IMO, contrary to what I've read others claim, UO had the worst risk vs reward system ever because those interested in anything besides pvp risked the most with little to no reward for successfully defending themselves and the aggressors could minimize their risk with greater potential for reward. And no, protecting what I've already earned through other forms of game play is not a reward. Especially when successfully defending it once (even 2 or 3 times) doesn't mean I don't have to keep defending it or stop doing what I want to do to deal with preventing it from being taken.

 

ok now im going to scratch open the wound again here! #1 PVP should be consensual! #2 PVP should be full loot! here's my reasoning behind it, so chill my nemesis's and understand this is just my opinion! I have as much right to voice my opinion as well as others no matter what side of the fence your on, you may not like it, but you dont have to, there are those that may agree with me? (i wish theyd voice their opinion as well!) but we all know that leads down a dark path in the forums! So ill lead the way!

Full loot because if you go into an area where you have consented to PVP, you need to suck it up! I dont win all my PVP fights but i enjoy the thrill, of actually having something close to me lost or taking something from someone else that means something to them! If i see you wearing nice ass armor, and you challenge me, i want that armor since its better than mine! or i want that weapon since it better than mine! (selfish? yes!) but on the other hand i will have something on me worth the fight to you! so it goes both ways! I dont care about your pride! Deal with it! You win some and you lose some! I could care less whether PVE, PVP, semi PVP, or whatever PVP you claim! Its not full loot where you lose everything! Yeah it may take some time to get those things back you lost, yeah you will be pissed! But at least you fought that battle! Without fear! You have earned respect out of that (even from the pkr that killed you), from me, and a bunch of others for accepting that challenge! You can get all that stuff back you lost! It will just take some more time. I will be as far in the PVP as i can and i accept all challenges, I AM NOT A PKR, but if needed i can switch in the blink of an eye for whatever reason i feel is a good one (attacking me being the first!) I am the nicest guy or the worst enemy you ever had, the choice will be up to you, where you want to be at on that level! I am a good sport i can deal with losing a battle!
I will have all my stuff on me that i think i need to survive in PVP(good stuff), if i lose it ill go get some more or make some more, im accepting into being forced to go do crafting (even though i hate crafting) Now on the flip side of things if its stuff you bought with real money that shouldn't be taken from you!, since it was real money (unless it was designed that way) so i will still have my axe of prosperity and my fishing pole of prosperity, but all things i made or received in game should be loot able!
I dont think any armor or weapons that are sold through add ons, should be invincible! since you will be using that first until its gone. Stronger maybe but not invincible!
So back to the main topic PVP and death thinking, yes to both if in PVP (that you have consented too!) If you dont like it then dont consent!
I have to end it like this or some people will be up in my grill about it, this is my opinion and i think i share the same beliefs, of most of the die hard PVP out there. There is no in between in the real world if your in a "war zone" you may be attacked and cleaned out! To avoid it just dont go there! all i see so far is watering down of real PVP. (once again my opinion)

Hate on me all you want, but i will be enjoying my game in PVP as best i can, with what little may be offered! I also hope that everyone (even PVE) has the best time they can!

 

Good morning Blaquerogue!

 

yeah thats right im drinking my big cup of asswhoop right now and the sleeping dragon has awoke once again! (love that pic!) its funny cause i was drinking my coffee as well!

 

Blaquerogue is Baaaaaack! This debate "is not over"

 

I agree with what you say here, but in my experience that's not how it works. I spend hours of game time gathering rare resources, paying 3,4,5 + GM crafter to make me a rare set of gear, not because it's super Uber but because it is rare and I want it (different style, color, maybe 1% better in one stat). I wear it, even in pvp, because I earned it and want to wear it. I get in a PVP fight and lose it, I'm fine with that. I go regear with backup gear and find them an hour later, and deliver a proper whooping in pay back. When I go to loot them, what do I find despite knowing the value of what they just looted off me? Crap, normally less valuable than the backup gear I am now wearing trying to recover the gear I lost. Why aren't they wearing the gear they just won?

I'm sorry, but that's not very "hard-core" in my book. They gain hours worth of gear in a few minutes of combat and are so afraid of losing it they run and hide it away. Wear it proud and risk losing it just like me, and then we can discuss who is hard-core.

 

What era of UO are you talking about? Pre- or post trammel? It's essential to know since UO after trammel had the best seen so far risk vs reward system of any MMO. Before trammel it was like Darkfall is today, a joke when it comes to risk vs reward where PK:s were just another colour on your character and meant nothing. Was no risk vs reward before statloss for PK:s was introduced to UO.

Felucca after trammel (UO Renaissance)was consensual PvP and had the so far best risk vs reward system i seen in any MMO game. PK:s in UO Renaissance had the highest risk of all players since they fought against battle ready players and could upon death risk statloss which is the hardest penalty for being a PK i ever seen in any MMO up until today. To retrain a statloss character if revived could take weeks or months to get him back to where he were when he died. And to stay as ghost and get rid of the statloss penalrt on revival ment usually many weeks of waiting, it was a unplayable character.

Loot in UO Renaissance was best from the battle ready players cause they needed alot of all sorts of geat, regs and potions to survive. Coming with a death robe and some regs was common before trammel but felucca after trammel ment a certain death for such a character.

UO Renaissance should be a role model for SotA PvP when it comes to loot, skill based combat system and alignment system. They could most likely copy it right off with small differencies and names on spells and skills since EA have the rights of UO today. Such a system implemented for PvP would bring a flood of PvP players to SotA and a more successful game. Ransom, random card combat system and no PK:s will not do that but on the other hand i dont think developers ever expected that many old UO PvP players to enter their PvP game since they didn't create a PvP game for them.

 

I played for about 4-5 months, pre-tranmel. I was so annoyed with UO I didn't stay for Trammel. I moved to Asheron's Call where people carried really high value "drop items". Yes, it's like insurance, you don't get their gear vary often because they are carrying a dozen 50k items so they won't drop their 12k weapon, but you know you are getting something of value when you win at least. It may be just a drop item, but it might replace or add to your drop items, and if not you can sell it for a decent amount.