Tram Killed UO is Tram back?

Improving at what? It's not all about PvP and player conflict. Maybe I can improve at role playing. Maybe I can improve at creating a play or writing a book or dressing my character or breeding new plants. There is so much more to this game than random PvP, and frankly I have little desire to get better at that.

 

Ok look at it this way, your a crafter, every time you go out to mine some ore you keep getting attacked and killed by this Ogre because your a crafter and don't have high enough combat skills to defeat it.

So do you go to a different mine? Possibly

Do you reach out to a friend, your guild, one of your customers who is combat trained and always buying equipment from you to come guard you while you mine? Wouldn't be a bad idea, and is another possibility.

Do something completely different that divides and segregates the world for reasons that can be dealt with and balanced with community and social aspects in game, isn't this the point in a MMO?

For us to police ourselves, and work together, and socialize, create online communities and societies, etc. Wouldn't that be Cool? Unique? Fun?

 

The Ogre is a NPC if that isn't clear

 

poisonman Well lets see, games are supposed to be FUN and games are designed to make money, this means they need to be fun for the largest number of players or they make bugger all money. If you please 5% of your fan base at the expense of destroying the game for the 95% who these 5% are exploiting your game will not make money and will therefore flop.

As for the difference between NPCs killing you and PCs killing you, NPCs are generally set there as a puzzle, the trick is to work out the best way to avoid them or kill them or whatever and you have beaten the puzzle. This is compleatly different from the example LB used of a thief who everytime a player respawned just zipped in, robbed her blind and left. That is no fun, that is not a challange to be overcome, that is just a pain in the neck.

Why is it that so many people think the only way for them to have fun is by destroying someone elses game? after all if its not about wrecking someones game then why not go kill or rob NPCs?

 

I think some of the punishments against PKs in UO worked just fine, if your only argument is people can bot / macro stuff back while not at their computer and not lose any game time, then the solution should be to do a better job detecting and banning these players. Botting and Macroing while AFK isn't cool. They could also make it more punishing as well.

I played as a Anti-PK in a Guild called LoK (Lords of Krynn)of the Atlantic Shard of Ultima Online, we RPed a bit as well, but I was in the Paladin division of the guild and we hunted PKs and Protected the Innocent and did what we could to help noobs, crafters, whoever. It was a lot of fun.

Dying in UO wasn't that big of a deal, it wasn't like MMOs nowadays where full loot would be devastating due to purple epics it took you weeks and months to get blah blah blah.

In UO nothing was really irreplaceable, you could be back on your feet in like 5 - 10 minutes without going back to your corpse at all. And it was a skill based game instead of levels and classes. That was the beauty of it. It was just fun.

 

@Sir Asguard - What is your view on this suggestion i made earlier in this thread - Make PvP hardcore as before trammel or before Age of Shadows for the ones wanting that kind of game, that kind of thrill. Make it optional. If you dont want to participate then dont. Do your thing without fear getting dragged into something you want to avoid.

 

@poisonman asked: "For us to police ourselves, and work together, and socialize, create online communities and societies, etc. Wouldn?t that be Cool? Unique? Fun?"

Yes, yes, and yes. Do you think that it is possible given that an MMO is not the real world and that real world pressures don't apply? We can't jail people, we can't take them to court, we can't cause them physical pain, we can't write a scathing article in the NYTimes that destroys their career. If the devs can come up with a system that can overcome those difficulties than Hoorah! Hoorah! but if they can't then other mechanisms must be employed.

 

@Asguard And that is another two problems right there with a lot of games, just because a game is hard and challenging does not make it NOT FUN.

The Second one would be exactly what you said games are being made nowadays for the sole purpose of making money rather than worrying about making a good game.

A Fun game, a different game (instead of a clone (ie the WoW effect), a game that takes risks, is innovative, makes things hard and rewarding (risk v reward), allowing freedom, choices, playing controlled and driven worlds, true sandboxes, niche games, real challenge, lets players build upon the story of the world and have their own stories.

They are too worried about trying to me WoW like Money and WoW like numbers, and a lot of games end up being clones because of it. not saying SoTA is a clone so don't twist my words.

They should really stop worrying about making as much money as possible and worry about making a good game, fun game, challenging and different game.

 

@Mugly Wumple OK so can't we think of systems and mechanisms that would do this without separating and segregating the game community? Like Trammel did!

And to flip one of your points, how does what these PKs do cause physical pain to victims? It is just a game they should calm down.

And some MMOs have "kind of" hinted at but never really fully implemented jail and court systems, but it could be done, like I said some games have hinted and suggested it even if they didn't end up actually committing to it.

There was a Reputation system in Ultima Online so you could see that, killing players affected it negatively.

 

@Poisonman
I think you've misinterpreted what I meant to say. I meant that we cannot cause physical pain to a player. Courts and jails are great fun. we used the Yew Courthouse and jail several time, but the only reason we could was because of player integrity and dedication to story. Even if permadeath of character, credit card and email address was enforced by the game, the worst that happens is this "criminal" has to find another game. We as players could just go to his house and beat the crap out of him. Heck, that's what we would do in-game.

 

Well Permadeath could be a great system but only one character per account without the ability to play ever again after death is really too harsh of system.

Although I really do like the idea of a permadeath system, I've been following a game in pre-develoment called Trials of Ascension due to that.

It reminds me of Pre-Trammel Ultima Online but with permadeath, it is pretty interesting and unique.

http://trialsofascension.com/

Trials of Ascension is a MMORPG project that beats to a different drum. For souls brave enough to try something outside the traditional MMO box, ToA will deliver a gaming experience like no other. We mean it. Seriously.

Where else can you find combat with perma-death, an open-ended skill system without classes, innovations that are unique to the discoverer, dynamic spawning of fauna, flora and dungeons, player-made settlements and structures, a cooperative crafting system and a magic system that will feel as mysterious as magic itself?

See, we told you its different. The question is: are you brave enough to try it?

 

Alternative reality. There are differences between what will be considered a punishment.

@Mugly Wumple
"Improving at what? It?s not all about PvP and player conflict. Maybe I can improve at role playing. Maybe I can improve at creating a play or writing a book or dressing my character or breeding new plants. There is so much more to this game than random PvP, and frankly I have little desire to get better at that."

This post is about PvP though. There is plenty of other threads addressing the other aspects of this game.

@Poisonman
There were many different aspects of Ultima Online that held reason in PvP and PKing. The Reputation system was fantastic for identifying thieves, Lords, and Ladies.
Bounty system was amusing and as someone mentioned earlier to prevent people from farming themselves or having their friends farm them it was suggested upon being given the task of hunting down the criminal it be given at random of who you are after other checks could be in place of just checking how frequently someone was in contact with another player since there is a limitation currently of only having one character.

There is a lot we have to learn about this new world and a numerous amount of detail that hasn't be divulged. But we can be certain the developers will help us achieve a game we all want. We also need to keep in mind we can't all have our way so lets find that medium! ;]

 

I have a feeling that this game is going to be insanely difficult compared to most other games. People will rage quite because they can't look up online cheats or tutorials. They plan on scrambling puzzles and quests so the answer will not be the same for everyone. I personally hope it's the hardest game to date!

I think the less advanced gamers that don't rage quit will still have a lot of fun farming and putting on plays and all the other millions of things you can do other than finish the main storyline.


If they dumb it down they lose their player base again like in UO. If RG wants to remain the lord of RPGs he will not be a pussy with this game. I think that's kinda what the Silver Serpent pendant around his neck stands for....If you have ever had the pleasure of fighting one then you know how hard this game will be.

 

@Acrylic 300

I enjoyed that post Acrylic.

 

I'm excited to see how SoTA turns out though, I'm hoping for the best.

 

I think that many of you don't understand the depth at which some of us role play. When my character gets killed, he's been harmed. He is injured and has to suffer those injuries. If the attack was serious enough, he may be crippled for the rest of his life. Either that or it didn't happen, like page ripped from a book.

This might sound foolish or stupid to you, but for me, that was the magic of UO - the ability to play at that depth with like-minded people. When I role play and it's really clicking, I _AM_ my character as much as any actor becomes their role. Continually getting killed because of rampant PvP just throws a wrench into all of that.

 

@fan.of.devin

Hold on a second, nothing I said was insulting or had any hypocrisy whatsoever in it. Your response to Mugly Wumple was a little condescending. I simply pointed out that working with people instead, of trying to pretend their views are irrelevant, is a much better way to have a meaningful conversation about PVP. Unfortunately that seems to have whizzed right past you as your response to me was indeed rude.

Yes indeed they have stated they will try, and no I don't know what the future holds. But in general people who get their enjoyment out of causing grief to others generally look for ways to avoid the restrictions, and they are very good at doing so. Historically there have been very few systems that successfully curb PK's. I was simply saying the two you had mentioned are typically not that effective, then asked that we work together to find some that are. It was a serious offer, to which your response was to try to attack me and not work together at all.

By saying help him I had clearly meant as a deterrent and not the ridiculous examples you gave, bounty systems do not deter PK's they just reward Anti PK's. Which is cool for the Anti PK's and I am all for them having fun, so awesome go ahead and implement that system Just don't do it with the mistaken belief that it will actually deter the PK's in the first place.

 

@Mugly Wumple

I believe you might have been a little over exposed to Ultima Online private servers.
You must remember private servers are extremely more inviting with major changes to how murders and thieves are viewed. They also do not have the server support Ultima used to have. If that isn't the case I am sorry but I can't recall being that concerned with rampant PvP altering my roleplaying regardless of the complexity of my character on the Origin servers. I did encounter griefing but I learned quickly of how to avoid or address those experiences.

 

@Cynric
I never played on a private server. I played on Catskills for over 10 years, beginning at launch. And yes, we had many different way to incorporate the random or accidental killings, but they were always a stretch. I also remember our little wilderness town being on the regular PK rotations where we could expect a raid at least a couple times a week, if not on a daily basis.

 

"By saying help him I had clearly meant as a deterrent and not the ridiculous examples you gave, bounty systems do not deter PK?s they just reward Anti PK?s. Which is cool for the Anti PK?s and I am all for them having fun, so awesome go ahead and implement that system Just don?t do it with the mistaken belief that it will actually deter the PK?s in the first place."

It does deter the pk's from the issue that the major of the community is concerned with. By giving the PK's an adversary we divert the attention from the new players onto a more skilled opponent.
so with more counter measures we can accomplish a lessened version of this predicted griefing community.

"Yes indeed they have stated they will try, and no I don?t know what the future holds. But in general people who get their enjoyment out of causing grief to others generally look for ways to avoid the restrictions, and they are very good at doing so. Historically there have been very few systems that successfully curb PK?s. I was simply saying the two you had mentioned are typically not that effective, then asked that we work together to find some that are. It was a serious offer, to which your response was to try to attack me and not work together at all."
When considering griefing I think we should look at the definition a little closer.

"A griefer is a player in a multiplayer video game who deliberately irritates and harasses other players within the game, using aspects of the game in unintended ways. A griefer derives pleasure primarily or exclusively from the act of annoying other users, and as such is a particular nuisance in online gaming communities, since griefers often cannot be deterred by penalties related to in-game goals"

deliberately irritates and harasses other players
Killing a single person once isn't really harassing and it could be constructive as far as their purpose. They could be advancing their own shops sell rate by slowing you as their neighbors progress because you are competing in selling the same product.
If you are concerned with them killing you over and over again because you may be persistent on collecting your corpse which is more than likely exhausted anyway well I would say you put yourself in that position and should alter what is more important to you.
Now if a player is determined single you and only you out to just continuously make your experience as a player appalling then that is absolutely harassment and would need some type of solution. If avoiding this individual and i mean actually avoiding them not just sitting in your house and complaining for attention doesn't work then we have administration that can handle an overly aggressive player. But other means of handling this player could be taken such as hiring hands to deal with him or even taking measures of moving your home(depending on how this is even possible that he is harassing you) or your hunting spot whatever it is please fill in your custom issue.

Overall I just hope we all understand what Harassment is.

"since griefers often cannot be deterred by penalties related to in-game goals"
It exist but I believe there will be a measure of players that would combat this type of demeanor be it by our virtuous players or a system that truly delivers repercussions.