Why is making and eating food more complex than casting magic spells?

The magic/spell system could be greatly improved and i like a lot of the suggestions on this thread

I am optimistic because i believe that what we saw on R8-R9 was about combat mechanics, not the "magic system" as a whole.

Maybe i am assuming too much, but they said prior those releases where the focus would be.

 

Please read Chris's post R9 posting where he says no reagents is for testing purposes only and goes into why. R10 will be the same for testing purposes too.

 

1+2.Obtaining spells either through buying or finding them yourself sounds great. It'll feel as if you accomplished something when you finally see those spells show up in your "spell book". Perhaps you could even gain some by doing some "favors" for a archmage. I like the idea of greyed out areas in your skilltree, but a question..Since skills further down the skill line require you to have at least one point invested in all previous skills, how would you suggest dealing with that? What if i find the spell that comes after the greyed out one first? Would i be able to use it?

3. Reagents, using reagents is fine. I prefer it actually, but ask yourself this, do all spells require them? Even the simplest of light spells? Perhaps we could limit them to spells that are usefull in combat situations? Combining multiple reagents through alchemy? No, just no! This would force mages to pick up alchemy only so they can cast certain spells. Letting someone else do it for you often costs gold as well, so basically you're paying double the gold. Buying the reagent and then having someone combine them.

4.A spell becoming more powerfull when you put more points into it..i'm not sure about this one. Perhaps the lowered reagent cost should be enough.

5+6. Some questions..
First one, do you want this for every combat spell or just the higher tier ones? I can see why it would work for the higher level ones, but not so much for the low level spells. A specialized mage, let's use fire as a example only has so many spells.
What would happen when a fight lasts longer then intended and you run out of spells? Do you start whacking them with your staff?
Second one, preparing spells costs some time i take it. How would you make that work in a pvp zone without getting killed while preparing them? Or a dungeon? Please don't answer with running away and finding a secure spot..you can't run away in the midst of battle with nobody following you , unless you're really lucky.
My thoughts, i'm not really a fan of prepared spells. Exceptions might be those summoning spells. Higher tier spells, perhaps. It could work if done right. I'm leaning towards no myself, though.

 

Why is a torch useful then, if you can just cast a free light spell whenever you need one? Because it makes you spend 1 less skill point?

I don't want to devalue the darkness in the game.

But if we're going to give out free light spells, let's just get rid of night time entirely and cut out the middle man. Problem solved.

 

If a spell/skill is a prerequisite for another more advanced spell, then I would say you can only spend skillpoints in the advanced one and use it if you obtained the prerequisite spell and if you have at least one skillpoint spent for it. You would then have to save some skillpoints until you find the spell or spend them otherwise - a tactical decision. But it should not be too hard obtaining the spells to avoid frustration.

As for all spells requiring reagents. That is a tough questions. I would tend to say yes, but minor spells would require very few and easy to get reagents. But that is my opinion only.

Preparing spells: I tend to say yes, every spell needs to be prepared. This way you would really have to choose tactical what spells to prepare and how many. Also what happens when the mage runs out of spells in the middle of combat? The same that happens when an archer runs out of ammo or the sword of a fighter breaks. You have to use what other means of defense you got or run... As for a dungeon, yes I think you would have to find a secure spot or leave the dungeon (but this would mean that there would have to be some tight rules for respawns of enemies).

Spells should be more powerful if you can't use them like a regular weapon anymore, by which I mean that you can cast fireball after fireball without thinking tactically about when to best cast the spell. If for example you can only cast three fireballs because you could not prepare more then you have to use those fireballs very wisely and also those fireballs need to be powerful.

I always think about the Dragonlance novels. At first, Raistlin was not able to cast many spells and he had to rely on his friends to defend him. But he got more powerful and at some point everyone feared him as he could cast more and deadly spells. This could be the case with SotA, too.

 

I realy LoVe the food system orientation. Thank Richard.

 

First off, i was using the light spell as an example, yet you make it seem as if the world would perish if it wouldn't cost any reagents. What is your point? That you personally don't like magic that doesn't require reagents? Second, why couldn't there be magic that wouldn't require any reagents?

Thanks for sharing your thoughts on my questions, i was curious about what your answers would be.

About finding the magic spells, perhaps finding spells should get more difficult the further down the skill tree you go. That would certainly make things more interesting. Not everyone has what it takes to be a archmage afterall

Preparing spells, i could agree with it if spells would be significantly more powerfull, but as they are now, no. Melee damage does more damage then any spell i have used so far. Should that change i would probably agree to what you are suggesting. Since nobody would want a op spell slinging mage. As for using magic or any skill tactically i can do nothing but agree with you 100%. No button mashing please...

Dragonlance novels, i heard of them, but i don't think any of them have been translated into my own language. Perhaps i'll pick up a English version one of these days..

Final thoughts on this. Reagents, no reagents. Preparing spells or not. I hope we'll be able to test each option and see which system would be good for the game.

 

I like Lord Darkmoon's list and also agree with Baron Drocis that pure mage combat should feel different. It's a classless skill system, but if you choose to play as a mage you shouldn't be running and hopping all over the battlefield. Let the rangers and warriors and paladins do that.

Here's a suggestion for how mage combat could work. There should be a spell which can only be cast when wearing cloth armor / robes that creates a defensive shield around the castor. If the castor moves the shield would go down or at least movement speed would be greatly reduced. Damage to the shield would drain some % focus and slow but not interrupt casting. This way a mage can be still and focus on casting more powerful spells which would be slow to cast even with prepared materials. It would also allow a mage to sit back and observe the battle a bit to be more strategic with the spells they choose to cast. And it opens up for more interesting activity, since the mage is not moving they could direct spells like command their elemental instead of having it run wild. There should also be another spell that consumes the mage's health in exchange for more focus so they could maintain it longer but at risk.

Two mages battling each other would use spells which attack each other's shields / focus directly. That fits nicely with mage combat in various fictions where they blast each other in a battle of wills.

 

Magic is about combat, cooking is about crafting...unless of course we are able to beat our opponents with a turkey drum stick. They are different systems for a reason, I believe. I think the answer on why magic should not be as complicated as cooking/crafting lies in the 'economics' of the game play. Not economics in coins or materials. But economics of game play input and the return the effort provides. Consider that one might make food with a complex recipe, but one simple action of eating it may create an effect that lasts for a long period of time. More work for more reward. But once you have done it, you have that for awhile. Now, during the time that cooking effect remains in place, you may engage in *countless* spell combat actions. Should it be as complex to launch each of those many combat spells, that have an instantaneous result, as it was to cook a food item with a result that lasts over a longer period of time? If you think of it like that, then from a practical game play perspective, if it is about 'gaming return per time or mouse clicks,' it would feel that making combat as difficult as crafting could become quite onerous.

Are there any original Asheron's Call mages here? If so, you may recall the original implementation of the magic system with all of the herbs, tapers, etc. What did you think of that complex reagent system? Quite a number of items were required (and burned) to cast spells. It was fun for awhile, but did feel onerous after a time. The developers must have agreed, because eventually they streamlined it. But that might be an example to study of making magic as complicated as crafting.

 

Totally and utterly disagree.

Maybe this game will only focus magic on combat, but magic is about more than combat, and certainly can be.

Magic can be leveraged in crafting: making /imbuing items with enhancements. Magic can also be used to gain knowledge, like wizard's eye to see far off lands, or summon mobs to inquire and interrogate. Magic can also be used to make storage space, like a dimensional door, or magic can be used with others (group magic) to extend construction or make larger empowering spells.

Being myopic, sure, it can just be about combat.

 

You obviously have not had Sir DiFumnarate's cooking where each dinner is more magical than any weapon, potion, wand or armor that anyone can craft anywhere or you would not need to ask such a question. At least that is one good reason not to lament that we can't really live in New Britannia. I am not saying that you're wrong or you don't have a valid point but perhaps one of the devs actually has had my husband's cooking.

 

I haven't played Asheron's Call, but I've played plenty of RPGs with different types of magic requirements and they worked fine. That would include Ultima, if you're even including basic things like requiring and burning through reagents, or requiring words of power. But a lot of old school RPGs required something.

And that just made them more fun for it, because magic actually meant something and you had to think about how you used it, lest the magic not be wasted. It became an interesting part of the game strategy.

I'm interested in hearing more about magic in Asheron's call : but, I'm always hesitant to use a single game as an example as how something is bad, because something can always be implemented well, or implemented poorly. I've played enough games to know this.

 

I am happy with the magic system as is ( even when reagents get tossed in) and cooking sounds like it's going to be a blast.

 

Why not make totems? Using specific materials to effect certain trees, or elements, of magic. The rarity of the materials used to imbue the totem would affect how the totem would affect the spells cast. Each spell cast would 'eat' some of the imbuement, plus having one item instead of 3-5 ingrediants, would save pouch space.

What happens if your totem runs dry? Well the thing about stuff like that, there are usually basic versions to be found in npc shops. =3 Plus as your skill in that particular spell got more refined, it would require less of a charge. Then there would be complex, heavy duty, spells like summoning a thunderstorm ot 5th level demon of decapitation and mayhem that would require several totems with a minimum imbuement. Then the stats of each totem would affect the various attributes of the effect.

Of course this could all be smoke on my part since I havn't been blessed enough to actually get to play the game.

 

Why not have reagents pop up randomly on a separate 'magic skill bar' and by clicking the different reagents as they hopefully appear, combine them into the spell you wanted to cast. The more reagents you have in your bag, the higher the probability of them randomly popping up. Sounds very very 'interesting' to me . . . . and will make magic casting fairly available to everyone. Same with the food, lets just have a hot bar of randomly appearing ingredients from your pantry, click them fast enough to combine them into a meal. . . . .that way everyone has an equal chance of crafting the food. No one should have any crafting advantages over anyone else. Sounds like a great system . . . . where have I heard this before?

 

Baron I have an idea and I am actually sorta robbing it from a small book once created for pen and paper D&D where you could use "Special ingredients for casting spells with an enhanced effect."

So for example in the AD&D players manual a fireball was a VSM spell which needed and I am using examples sulfur and black pearl.

Now in the magic compendium if you case a fireball with a fire opal which was a 1000 gold. The fireball was casted at 300% damage.

So we can let mages cast with no material components for low end damage and normal reagents for the normal spells and exotic and rare components for the BIG KABOOM!

I happen to like where you are going with this.... Kudos.

 

Now these rare ingrediants should not be something on a web page. I think the game should "Hide" this knowlege in the game and make wizards research/quest or it.

So for example a novice mage can not use fire opal with his fireball spells because he has not done the quest which will require certain experience to have before taking it.

So what are we doing here? Is creating end game content for that level 50 wizard who has nothing better to do.

So a level 50 wizard can start taking on these "Research quests" and advance his wizardry to the final level and using these ultra rare spell components. A component could be a Dragon tooth and or high end mob drops concocted with the quest and mixed up in a bowl similar to what we are doing with food. Now you have a excellent food system that uses some of its ability to combine items for the end game wizard making his deadly fireball soup.

 

I agree with you in so many ways. To ask questions can be deemed as a troll.or at the very least an attack on said developers .For God sake's don't ask about anything you may have seen in a video that hasn't been implemented.

 

Yep, I remember that.

I also remember the personal and global spell economies. The more you cast the weaker your spells became. The more spells cast globally the weaker everyone's spells became.

This was removed because of complications not related to combat and it was not adding to any kind of fun factor.

The taper and reagent system was designed to control the mage population and the economy was greatly unbalanced once people figured it all out.

 

What complications not related to combat was it removed for? Can you say with total confidence that no fun was had by a single person?