A change to deck combos to make gameplay smoother

I watched a lot of gameplay vids of the latest installment and find that a simple change to the combo system would improve gameplay a good deal, at least for my playstyle.

- right now: A player needs to drag and drop a card onto another to create a combo before being able to use it

- a change: A player should trigger the combo by using the cards in successive fashion. Instead of grabbing a card and dropping it on the other I would simply use the first card(for normal damage) and then use the second card(for combo damage). If I am too slow in using both then the combo is lost. If I break the combo order by using a different card between the two(such as a heal card, then the combo is lost. This could scale to be 3,4,5+ mega combos without dragging mechanics. It would also create better combat between players since you'd have to decide wether or not a combo needs to be broken to heal or used despite low life etc.

As is movement during battle feels impaired by the drag and drop system. I'm also quite sure that constantly dragging and dropping cards will become tiresome. "See the cards/use the cards" is, to me, better than "See the cards/merge the cards/use the cards" and this can be done without losing combinations.

 

They would also need to check for multi level combos. If you cast fire arrow and then death ray, you'd get a level 1 fiery decay. If you repeat that combo again consecutively without breaking the pattern, it would then be a level 2 fiery decay. However this is complicated by multi level single skills. Cast three fire arrows in a row and you get a level 3 fire arrow. But then you cast death ray. How would the game know you wanted to do a level 2 fire arrow and then a level 1 fiery decay vs simply casting a regular death ray after that level 3 fire arrow? Perhaps hotkey modifiers on the click?

 

Excellent point. It would not be viable to do what your suggesting. Its a bit tough to make combos in some cases. I think as time goes on and we get more familiar it will get easier. I don't think it is perfect. But I also am not sure myself a great suggestion that can make it better, at the moment.

Combos as a melee are great when I get rooted and don't want to waste focus trying to jump root I have lots of time. Also its a mass negative when being kited nonstop by "rabbits". They can hit auto run and mouse move then "R" combo all day. I cant do that as easily because if I stop watching and they zig or zag im smoked in the chase.

Ive found combo's to be limited use because of the issues of making them. But I do use them as I can and they do seem to work well in design. Also my fear is making it to easy then its a min/max of who stacks 3-5 of the best combo's first with 1 shot scenarios.

 

As i stated in the quoted post, i'd love another way of unleashing combos that feels less distracting, but that doesn't mean the actual mechanic needs to go (I don't think it could be removed either, for the reasons exposed above). Anyway, i'm all in for a fast way of releasing combos. Also note that throwing three or four skills in a combo way will take its toll; all of sudden, you're lacking all the glyphs you're used, and in need of some time to have all the slots filled, so it compensates a sudden burst with the posterior lack of resources.

 

It should work imho like this:

You click on - You actually cast

Fire Arrow - Fire Arrow 1
Fire Arrow - Fire Arrow 2
Fire Arrow - Fire Arrow 3
Death Ray - Firery Decay 1

or

Death Ray - Death Ray 1
Fire Arrow -Fiery Decay 1
Death Ray - Fiery Decay 2
Fire Arrow - Fiery Decay 3
Fire Arrow - Fire Arrow 1
Death Ray - Fiery Decay 1

Basically, it should imho combine with the last glyph you clicked on.

 

Your second example is incorrect I think. You can't get Fiery Decay 2 by merely adding a Death Ray. You need to add a Death Ray + Fire Arrow to get Fiery Decay 2.

So sequential clicking would simplify things but gives you less control over making combos. I still think a modifier key + click allows complete control. Anytime you want to make a combo, just use the modifier+click on any number of glyphs in sequence.

So if I had 3 fire arrows on my hot bar, I'd hold Ctrl and left-click on all three, and release ctrl. Boom, Level 3 fire arrow is cast.

Hold ctrl and left-click on fire arrow and death ray, release ctrl. Boom, level 1 fiery decay. If I repeat that sequence, I cast another fiery decay, but now it's level 2 because that was my previous cast.

 

It is not how it works right now, but it is how I wish combos worked.

I also do not like the Ctrl/Shift plus clicking method much, I prefer casting one glyph at a time, though when they are casted in the right order, the effects would combine.

 

If you are casting them and have gaps between each spell though as a single cast each time? Ive had many mages fire arrow me and then kite then decay. Then decay or whatever. So the Dot off the arrow is even gone by the time they cast again. I would assume that would possibly render single cast in order, for combo's unusable.

 

Combos need to be intuitive, if you press X followed by Y you get Z combo bonus. It could be extended so that if you press X, followed by Y, followed by A you get a bonus on Y and another on A. It's the actual merging mechanic I have issue with, not the combos or combo damage themselves. As is there are 3 steps to doing damage, card selection+combining cards+movement. If the merging mechanic is removed then there are two steps. card selection+movement. Movement becomes less of a concern if neither player is too focused on merging cards instead of positioning.

Read here(official website post by devs) - https://www.shroudoftheavatar.com/?p=44528

Under the current fighting system the attention to the merging mechanic required will lead to increased movement(by talented PvPers) because simply kiting a less talented player who is not as adept at the merging mechanic will be a viable skill to have. We need to look at the cards, no doubt about that, but trying to also drag and drop cards means less attention is paid to position. I guarantee that talented PvPers will take advantage of that by moving to make yourself harder to hit, ultimately overwhelming another player with mechanics instead of gameplay, I know I would.

The problem I describe is leading to what the devs call a worst case scenario, I thought that my suggestion was a viable one to relieve the problem... and it will allow players to spend more time focusing on what the opponent is doing than on sliding cards around.

Summary - how adept a player is at merging cards currently helps determine the outcome of a fight and causes more talented players to overwhelm less adept players by moving behind/around them to keep them busy. I propose that the merging mechanic is the problem, your merging skill should not influence the outcome or detract from your positioning awareness, imo. In fact the merging mechanic itself likely adds to latency and nobody likes lag.

Remember: the random card system already makes button selection harder/different than traditional permanent keybind selections, which is great, but the merging mechanic is overkill imo and will cause players to attempt to have the other side fumble the combos by moving more. Your eyes can only be in so many places at once, if you can't watch your opponent closely then you can't expect him to stand still while you're not watching.

 

I agree with the OP.

"Sequential glyph selecting" combos should make the fight experience smoother.

 

I suggested a similar solution in R10 feedback forums ( btw where can we have a look to them now? )
I cant understand how some people can be fine with this click and drag combo system keeping your view out of action.
Maybe staring at your hand when playing cards is ok, but it is not when you are playing a video game, and definitely not when
you are engaged in combat, at least not in a XXI century game.

A very easy way to create combos from random glyphs is just using the right glyphs in the right sequence and timing, getting a combo bonus
at the end of the sequence. If you get interrupted by any circumstance during the sequence then you just failed the combo, that easy, that simple.

We could even have visual on screen feedback of combos in progress and success or failure visuals at the end.

This is giving randomness even extra value to tactical actions as you might end with a good or bad combo hands in your deck based on luck,
and even creating different combos depending on the situation or creating more complex combos.

Timing is the keyword here , unless you want SotA to be a Spell gun machine game, Combos would need a proper timing delay.

 

If spells take an amount of time to cast, you could have it so the glyphs could be combined by clicking on them during the cast time (during that window), and then the combo is released when the cast time is over.

Right-clicking is also an alternative to Shift/Ctrl if they're considering that method.

 

I even think that this system could get profit of the trial / fail system implemented in crafting so people could discover combos just playing and get them added
to his combat skills when they find a new combo, the same way recipes are added to our crafting book.

 

Here's a problem with the sequential approach. On my bar I have three fire arrows. I click the first one. now what? Does the game assume I wanted to do a combo? If so, with how many of the other fire arrows? One arrow to make a two arrow combo? Both of them making a three arrow combo? It's hard, if not impossible, for the game to tell what I want to at each step.

BTW, I hope you realize that you don't have to use the mouse to drag one glyph to the other. There was a hot key you could use to do all the combos. They even made it so that using the hot key drew borders around all the keys that could be combined into a combo.

 

This is similar to my idea of using Poker as the framework for combos.

Three of a Kind beats Two of a Kind
A flush beats a Straight
Etc...

Only instead of just creating combos...players could also have defensive combos...so it would look a lot like this:

3 Thrusts are blocked by 4 Shields for 0 damage.
2 Fire Arrows and 3 Ice Arrows hit against 2 Shields and a 1 Force Dome for 30 damage.

This would give players the ability to block, counter, and try to time their best attacks instead of spamming everything.

 

Good point. And the sequential method also has a drawback of losing time. If the skill has a DOT, you lose some of that effectiveness. Cast Fire Arrow, it starts to DOT but as a level 1. You cast another Fire Arrow one second later and now it DOTs as a level 2, but only for the remainder of the time that the first Fire Arrow has left. So casting two sequential Fire Arrows will lose some effectiveness over casting a single Level 2 Fire Arrow.

Yeah, the problem is that the hot key does not work with the mouse click. The hot key only works with the # keys. They should fix that so that I can hit "R" and then use the left-click to make combos.

 

A lot of great ideas here, I'm in agreement that the combo system needs refinement and simplification. I think both the combo key and sequential approach should actually be combined.

It would potentially work like this:
Slot 1........./ Slot 2........./ Slot 3........./ Slot 4........./ Slot 5........../ Slot 6.........
Flame Fist / Flame Fist / Fire Arrow / Death Ray / Fire Arrow / Death Ray

[Combo-key active]
[Hits 1 & 2]
[Glyphs combined and merged into left-most slot] (since it's always a 1+1 system, wouldn't work otherwise)
[Combo-key released]

Slot 1.............. / Slot 2...... / Slot 3......... / Slot 4......../ Slot 5......... / Slot 6.........
Flame Fist (2) /------------/ Fire Arrow / Death Ray / Fire Arrow / Death Ray

[Combo-key active]
[Hits 3 & 4]
[Glyphs combined and merged into Slot 3]
[Hits 5 & 6]
[Glyphs combined and merged into Slot 5]
[Hits 3 & 5]
[Glyphs combined and merged into slot 3]
[Combo-key released]

Slot 1.............. / Slot 2.............. / Slot 3.............. / Slot 4............. / Slot 5........... / Slot 6.............
Flame Fist (2) / ---------------- / Fiery Decay (2)/ ---------------- / -------------- / -----------------

The main issue I have with this is, I might want to combine glyphs and keep them on my bar, waiting / gambling for a higher combo and not cast it immediately Edit: there are other benefits that may be lost in this process as well, not just DOT enhancement - you'll lose the focus discount too!

Separately but relatedly - I'm not for windowed timing as a means to glyph combos, because I can imagine a huge amount of frustration when spells are unintentionally cast due to fumbling of the fingers (e.g., missed the combo by 0.5 second too late). Glyph combination IMO should be a deliberate and precise choice. There have been situations in which it was more beneficial for me to blast three Flame Fists (level 1) on different targets, rather than have them automatically (and unintentionally) combined into a single Flame Fist (3) without the modifier key.

 

Yep, totally agreed. I normally would only want to combine and wait for the higher level combos but there are times I want to fire right away. Perhaps we need another variation to allow firing it off immediately on the last click. Otherwise we'd have to move the mouse and click on the first skill used in the combo as that's where combos are combined into. This would save 0.25-0.5 seconds which allows us to return our eyes back to the action and off the hotbar.

 

I'm all for options perhaps this should be a game setting (throws another brick into the Dev's pile ) that is checked and fires last combined combo.

 

Sunsword I agree with being able to make multiple combos off one hot key press. I think there is something in their code, or maybe it was a design decision, that might prevent it. The reason I say this is that during the first day of the dev test I was able to combine multiple glyphs at one time. Then on one of the later patches before the release combos were restricted to two glyphs at a time. I was sad when that happened.