Will it REALLY be a player driven economy?

Hello Everyone

I am an Old UO player, and have seen EVERYTHING change in MMOs and I'M worried this really wont be the old MMO we really had/wanted.

The reason i'm typing this is i want someone to pat my back and say don't worry. "This will be the old community you once had."

I guess i will make a little list that has happened over the years turning UOs MMO community into MMO single player games with other people doing the same tasks with NO interaction.

1.) Repairs.

OLD MMO Finding your friendly neighborhood PC crafter to repair your items or sell you new ones to replace lost/broken ones.

NEW MMO go to any NPC and click a button to have all items repaired to full. Or have items that are super magic and never need repairs EVER.

2.) You are a unique snowflake.

OLD MMO You usually had 2-3 chars that where very different and you could not possibly fill all roles needed. there for you needed again to find Friends to help with tasks

NEW MMO You can now have 6-8 some games 20 chars. No need to find or Contact another human being, you want something done, you got to do it yourself! Log out and in with another char, then log out and in again. Maybe even have 4 accounts! Heck i don't want to talk to anyone...why play an MMO!?

3.) The good old PvP vs PvE fight. *not PKers killing PvEers* The economy around it.

PART A)

OLD MMO. Im a PvEr and im totally cool with not going where im going to die I like making armor/cloths/tools, growing plants, making my house look cool. But i like my contact with PvPers because they bring back things from dangerous areas and i can trade/buy them so they may pay for more PvP stuff and i get cool house decor.

NEW MMO. I can now get everything much easier within my crafting system. Why do i need to talk to a PvPer they ruin games.

PART B)

OLD MMO. Im a PvPer I love life on the edge doesn't pay well, i die a lot, i break a lot of armor, But sometimes i come back with a super rare item that i know PvEers will pay a large some for. So it makes it all worth it. Plus they fix my stuff up and i refill my potions!

NEW MMO. WOW! no one PvPs anymore... Or if they do its for.... nothing... Im sorry but this does nothing for me, I PvPed for a strategic point, where I knew something would be worth value. I PvPed for economic growth not for a highscore or a 1800 rank....

4.) Cut and paste MMO *this one i think we are safe on but i will post anyways*

OLD MMO. Was a unique experience, some people had complaints, changes where made, the game wasn't for everyone but there where other bazaar MMOs to try. The players that backed this I feel are looking for that old feel. Also looking for that unusual MMO again.

NEW MMO. Look there was a game by NOREASTER entertainemnt WWooWW its an old game but lets make are game exactly like it. Other developer IM IN!. Other other developer IM IN TOO! 4th developer think they will notice if we reskin it and call it WAR STARS maybe spend like 90 mil in voicing it all... but basically be the exact same thing. 5th developer OH OH im with Behemoth software i have a following of fans that play OLD SCROLLS game. I could cut copy paste too!

PLEASE STOP DEVELOPERS PLEASE!

Well this was just me thinking. I am liking the game so far but I see a few things that scare me.

repair kits on NPCs. (not sure if gear breaks in this game but if it doesn't no need for crafters in long run)
PvP area with nothing important at all in the area. I don't fight for nothingness.
instances??? I walked into an area with my friend and apparently he wasn't in same dungeon? I play MMOs to interact not be split apart.

Well tell me what you think?

 

Sorry but this is NOT just an MMO ("new" OR "old"), its also a single player game YES the game does need to be designed in such a away that I don't need to talk to another player if that's how I want to play. I HOPE this will be done with good quality companions (like U7+SI) rather than nerfing the game if your playing single player or overly opening up the skill progression system

 

Yes, it will really be a player driven economy.

There are three things this game does at it's core. Crafting, Housing and Combat.

Of those three things, crafting and housing are the strongest by far (combat has major problems). The design of crafting and housing never makes me question what the devs are doing. It never makes me concerned. Yes, this will be a player driven economy the likes of which most games never even dream of. This is based on what the devs have said over the last year or so. But there's still a lack of details about how deep that system will be...time will tell.

 

Jim_Angel welcome to the community! I will just get this out of the way, Shroud Of the Avatar is NOT Ultima Online 2. I have to be honest when I first heard of SotA, I thought it was going to UO2, which is what I was looking for at the time. However, after reading everything I could about SotA and following it's development, I am glad it isn't UO2. UO has a very special place in my heart, but it is time to move on to something different and SotA is different in many ways. I won't highlight all the differences you should do your own homework in that regard. A good place to start is the FAQ.

Regarding your concerns, SotA is still in pre-alpha and has many things not completed or even implemented yet.

1. I agree with you that repairs should be at least allowed to be done by an actual player, however I understand the risk of having gear stolen as well. This release is the first to have the ability to repair and it is just a test phase so it far from complete. I don't have a problem with repair kits, except they should repair items completely not just 10%.

2. You are allowed up to three characters per account, it was originally just one. From my understanding from what developers have said, being able to master every skill on one character will be almost impossible due to time required. Again, since the skill tree is still being worked on and balancing has yet been done, I don't know exactly how this will play out once SotA goes live. I am in the camp of not wanting a character the ability to master everything.

3. The details of how PVP will play out are still being discussed. However, there will be sieges and control points and open PVP areas. From an economy stand point, from what I gather PVP and PVE will be pretty much be the same. They will both require repairs, new gear, etc. There will probably be rare items only obtainable from bosses, I hope.

4. This is a little ironic, because it almost sounds like you want a carbon copy of UO. SotA will not be like most MMOs, even though it isn't an MMO in the true sense. This might make you happy, but some people have complained that SotA is too old school.

As for instances, that is something that will not change as that is a large part of how the game is being designed. There have been many threads on that topic you should take a look through them.

 

Welcome to the community - Jim_Angel. Great questions which are worth a long discussion.

I'm also a very old school UO player having played it for more than 8 years before changes in my life didn't permit spending a great deal of time on it. However, not I'm back and ready for more and just like you i've been extremely bored with many of the MMOs on the market where one char can basically do everything and there is no need for interaction. When I first heard of SotA I thought the same as Furious Farmer "Great UO2 is coming". However, there are significant changes to SotA and it cannot be compared to UO - which is good in my opinion.

With regards to your questions above:

1) Repairs - I fully support your comments that repairs must be done by another player and NOT by one clicking a NPC. As SotA is a RPG MMO I hope the developers will see the importance of having the player base interact with each other otherwise I fear the game won't last long. Having repair kits is the game is a fine idea, but they have to be player created and bought off vendors at people's houses and not from an NPC. On another note I also think all gear in the game no matter if it is magical or normal must be repaired and the durability will eventually make the item break.

2) Unique players - you are so right. All players shall be unique which is also the intention with SotA as I understand it. It will be nearly impossible to have one char with max in every skill, and hopefully the developers will ensure it really isn't possible for anyone to get remotely close to mastering majority of skills in the game. I'll make a comparison to UO where we had a skill cap of 700. Something like that would make sense again, however, times have changed and so have MMO games so a different approach is required. And again I also think this is what the developers are going for. At least it would be very sad to see a player who can master all crafting skills, or a player who is both archer, melee and mage at the same time just because he has no life and is able to play 24/7.

3) PvP vs PvE - this topic is a hot potato and it will never be possible to satisfy everyone's wishes. By nature I'm the dedicated craftsman, just like yourself, that can spend hours of farming resources or decorating my house or simply talking to other players while repairing or crafting their new armor. I put a pride in the conversation and delivering a piece of quality work which will result in returning customers. For that reason life for me in game would definitely be easier if I wouldn't get ganked by PvP's all the time BUT I for sure wouldn't like to run around in a PvE world where there would be no real dangers to me. If I know that going to a certain area in the game with great resources but a fair chance of getting me ganked well then I'll do a cost-benefit analysis to decide whether or not I want to do it. Simple!!! We should be very careful about "removing" the PvP'ers from the game and giving them dedicated areas such as a PvP arena to play in because it won't be a sustainable solution to the game. PvP'ers want to roam around the world and maybe gank when the option is available and occasionally they'd spare the victim and ask for repairs or the like.

4) As stated by Furious Farmer this game won't be like other MMO's or UO2.

I look forward to more comments in this post and hopefully one of the developers reads this and will include a hint/update to one or all of the topics in one of the next weekly updates.

 

Actually I have to completely disagree, NPCs should provide EVERYTHING BUT they should end up being more expensive than players. Because what happens if someone decides not to do something or or if the only people who DO provide something quit the game or even just go away or lastly if the people providing x service are antisocial. My gaming experience (ESPECIALLY for a game like this which has cost so much) shouldn't depend on the whims of someone else

 

Personally I don't understand the need to make the economy as a whole player-driven. Hopefully there will be other things to do in the game then make gold.

And as you said, players can always undercut NPC vendors.

 

@Sir Asguard - I agree that if repairs were to be in the game then it should be a lot more expensive compared to repairs from another player. There needs to be an incentive to prefer the repairs from other players otherwise it will be an NPC driven economy which I don't believe anyone will prefer. With that said I still don't think NPCs should offer repairs. If you ever do end up in a situation where there's no smith in game to repair then simply buy new gear from a vendor (NPC or player) but I doubt we'll end up with no one to repair ingame. I just see this a extremely unlikely. I perfer this approach compared to allowing NPCs to offer repairs.

 

Actually the more I think about it the more I think repairs should be MAINLY NPC not player run, For example I am Australian, so I start playing in around 1900, play for an hour and need to get my sword repaired, oh !@#$ there is no sword repairers in my time zone so there goes my play time. Then there is the issue that I start playing, my sword needs repair so even if I CAN find a repairer I give them my sword and what? twiddle my thumbs till they get around to it? this is a game, not real life

And lastly how is this going to work in Single player only? sure I can go to a player vendor, and look at a sword it has for sale, and buy it or not but how can repairs be handled as simply? and it has to be vendors because otherwise what happens if I am playing Single Player or Friend only or even Open but am in a different instance than the repairer?

No repairs should be NPC only

 

Sir Asguard, since I'm mainly a craftsman compared to a PvP'er or melee fighter I'm of course interested in making sure the developers won't forget 'the crafters' in the game. If there's no incentive for crafters in the game then they will be a duying race which is in no ones interest. With that said I could support the idea of NPCs offering repairs IF they are significantly more expensive than player made repairs. For example if the cost of doing a repair for a player is X then the repair from a NPC should be 2X. With this idea in mind I think it is important that the NPCs don't sell repairs at standard prices because then it will just be extremely expensive for new players and easily affordable for high level players. Instead the price should be based on the players level so that the price is equally fair no matter if you are level 5 or level 95. But under all circumstances the NPC repair should be more expensive than the player made.

How will we decide what the cost for a repair is at a player compared to an NPC? Well only time will tell but hopefully it can be adjusted and tweaked after time to reach an win-win solution for all.

 

I'm all for crafters having a role but that role shouldn't come at the expense of other people's enjoyment. That's the same as for PvP, it shouldn't get in the way of non PvPers.

So that said how do you solve the issues I raised?

That me as a person in single player needing my sword repaired at say 2100 ACST (which if I am right would be 0330 in the US) and there are no crafters online?

How do you ensure that if my sword needs repairing (even IF your online) that when I give it to your vendor I don't have to wait a week to get it back and I can keep playing and enjoying my game?

How do you ensure MY game is fun too?

If you want to put penalties on me to force me to play a certain way then you need to show me why that is needed and how it fits into my play style

 

Good and valid questions Sir Asguard which I'll try to answer to the best of my ability.

Q: That me as a person in single player needing my sword repaired at say 2100 ACST (which if I am right would be 0330 in the US) and there are no crafters online?
A: This could be solved by for example having repair deeds on players vendor and/or having repairs done by NPC. Then you won't need to be reliant on other players being online but if you buy from player vendors you support the crafting community and make sure they also have fun in the game. Here I would also like to once again mention that if you buy repairs from NPCs it should be more expensive. Why? Because this is not a single player game. It is an MMO developed for the masses and in order to sustain majority of players continuning playing I see it as the best solution. Yes, you will have to pay a bit more but it of course shouldn't be a ridiculus amount. This is part of game mechanics and hopefully the developers can think of a win-win solution.

Q: How do you ensure that if my sword needs repairing (even IF your online) that when I give it to your vendor I don't have to wait a week to get it back and I can keep playing and enjoying my game?
A: Same reply as in above question.

Q: How do you ensure MY game is fun too?
A: Difficult to answer as it depends on what you find fun. If you find it fun running around naked in the woods while chanting the latest Lady Gaga song to your favorite bear Yogi then go ahead and do that but I doubt the majority of players would want to do that. There has to be something for everyone and my only point in this discussion is just like OP wrote "NEW MMO go to any NPC and click a button to have all items repaired to full". I quite sure that will destroy the game and definitely not what SotA developers are going for based on the mails, forums and video's I've seen so far.

 

One point where you are wrong, this is not just an MMO. It is (and was sold as) both a single player game AND a multiplayer game allowing you to play however you want. The term they use is "selective Multiplayer" and they jump up and down whenever someone calls it an MMO for this exact reason. Now if someone does want to run around naked singing lady gaga HOPEFULLY they are playing single player but good on them if thats what they want to do.

This is a quote from the kickstarter page:

I am all for player crafting and I am more than happy to buy what I need from you, where I draw the line is with repairs because that means I have to give you my sword and wait for you to turn up and fix it and then somehow let me know I can pick it up again which is great for your play but stops mine dead. In fact this would cause me even more problems than the silly always online in Diablo 3 because its not just 1 night a week

That said there is a compromise which will fix my problems and involve you the way you want too and they have implemented it this release too (they just need to expand it), that is repair kits. If repairs were a saleable item (ie repair kits) which I go to you to buy and then when I need it I just click on it and it fixes my weapon then that fixes all my problems. If your vendor doesn't have any I will just go to someone else who does, you can make however many you want and the economy can be player centered BUT they have to change repair kits to fully repair an item

 

I think the decision to make it both an MMO and a single player game at the same time will prove to be problematic. Without unlimited funding it's going to be hard enough to make just ONE of those options top notch, the competition is fierce. Splitting the dev power in a way that guarantees a lot of your players never see your effort is a bad idea(most will play one or the other, very few both I would imagine). Since it's already built why not leave the solo player adventure as is but re-focus the staff on the MMO side of the game, nobody is buying super expensive pledges to play a solo player game! (and the rewards are geared to the MMO side anyway).

 

How in anyway is the solo player game built?

And YES actually I AM buying a hugely expensive pledge to play mainly solo thank you

just to prove the point what level are you currently?

 

Sir Asguard you seem to be more interested in your own game play and disregard what others want.

You have to be thankful for being able to play solo at all since this is an MMO, but nevertheless with repair deeds you can continue to play solo or maybe in the solo playing world the NPC could offer repairs only.

I'm currently lvl 11 so not very high. However, my level is not relevant to this as the discussion relates to game mechanisms in my opinion. As I see it the developers can easily setup a win-win solution that will satisfy all of us, but following your suggestion to only let NPCs do repair is ridicolus to me.

 

Not that kind of level, he wanted to go on about how much people have put into the game and stated that no one would pledge high if they wanted to play single player

firstly no I don't need to "be thankful" that a product acts as sold, that's the law and during kickstarter (ie when they asked me to BUY the game) they stated that it was a single player game if that's how we wanted to play it or we could CHOSE to play it with others

Yes I took offence at his post and your last one too. I pledged before there was a game and I put a significant amount of money in and I EXPECT the product that I was sold

 

The last thing I want to see in this game are repair-deeds... I dont mind repair kits that involve crafting skills for quick repairs in the field.
If there is no player online who can repair your sword (rather unlikely in my opinion) you should have got some spares before adventuring.
If we have to have NPCs who can repair equipment then they should be no better the rather mediocre player armorers with basic equipment.
It should always be better to ask another player for services. (or train up crafting skills yourself if you want to play on your own)

 

Hi Im back to Que in on this.

The best thing about a player run economy is voids are quickly filled by real people.

Sir Asguard
IF and this is a huge IF, you couldnt find a person, a person's vendor, or any sort of player made repairs for armor and weapon, there are several things that us as people would do.

A.) People would talk to one another and say wow i cant repair any armor anywhere this is horrible!. Then people would go Hummmmm there is a lot of money to be made in armor repair right now amazing tips and everyone seems to need me! I better tell my friends to be come smiths!

(if the played didnt tell friends) People would notice the guy has a line out the door and takes to long i will tell people how crazy this is and then Another person would most likely make a smith for easy profits. Exactly what would happen in a player run community

B.) You Sir Asguard may play "DIFFERENTLY" a scary word to a lot of people hate to read but yet so so simple. You sound like you will be a big hunter maybe a PvPer. So you will most likely find gobs and gobs of armor. Instead of selling it all why not have some back ups. Heck why not 5 full suits of armor and sword back ups!? No down time what so ever best [part about that if your having a bad PvP day, which we have all had. Then instead of playing "tilted" a Magic the gathering term. Meaning you start to play badly because you are in a bad mood. You can take a break and go find some repairs in the mean time.

C.) Maybe there will be a totally different mechanic for off line play maybe it will just be one click repairs. But if that is the case. Then I want to see it be so drastically expensive that people cant just log out multi player, log in single player, repair, then log back in to multi player. Just to take advantage of a loop hole. Another thing humans like to do which in the end breaks down so many games that have them.

 

Jim_Angel well spoken!!!!

Sir Asguard - dont get offended by people having a different opinion than you.