Can we JUMP? (Dev) Replied

Yeah, I kinda already outlined the realism, stamina, approximate jump height necessary based on approximate height of in game objects...

I believe the real sticking points for ... "anything more than contextual jumps" ... is would it work on a tablet (which I'm guessing means pathfinding and slower action pacing)? and perhaps more importantly (and as has also mostly been mentioned), what are the additional overheads for allowing free roam over the vertical axis.

Simply given that these two things might be issues, based on information currently available, it seems at present highly unlikely that we'll see anything more than ...

• contextual jumping

and or​

• float jumping (the ability to jump as long as long as you're not blocked at your current z level, jumping puddles, gaps below, off of objects and higher ground, but not up onto objects or over them - as this would avoid the vast majority of stuck situations that were not intentional ... so you could have a spike pit that could be jumped over, but require a contextual climb out of, but couldn't climb the scenery or out of the world as you can in Neverwinter).

 

Aspects that are very time consuming have a tendancy to eat away time that could be used for depth in areas that aren't as time consuming. Or you can't add depth without having to update a huge mechanical aspect of the game. The old argument that games lost all the depth when they went 3d because so much more time was required for the 3d related stuff.
My friend who introduced me to ultima as a child always said ultima got worse when they added jumping. This is why I love to hear sota team mentioning things like dual scale maps for the sake of time.

Although I think at the least you should be able to jump for the sake of habit.
It can feel odd when you can't jump because we are so used to it now.

Its exciting to see the potential out there for a new rpg with top notch talent
simplifying time consuming aspects of game development for the sake of adding more depth and ability for updates. I don't think I've seen
this approach at the professional level, usually more of an indie game direction. One of the reasons I'm so excited for sota.

 

I strongly agree with the sentiment. But, Ultima added jumping whilst it was still 2D... And it is far simpler comparatively these days to add jumping than it was in the past, especially within Unity.

I'm hoping it'll be much easier to perceive what sort of time impact adding jumping might have and how beneficial (or inconsequential) it could be to the experience once we see more how the game demos.

Again I agree... though in my own mind I'm hazarding towards remembering that in comparison to AAA titles, SotA is a small budget game and therefore in some regards is a good example of what we're seeing more and more recently, an indie (style) game, professionally developed.

 

I completely support the inclusion of jumping for this game. Just don't make jumps anything like Ultima VIII: Pagan

 

That's definitely true, but I don't think much of the blame can be placed on jumping per se. In Ultima VIII, jumping was just flat broken in it's original release. Once they patched it to actually work, it wasn't so terrible. The way jumping was used was really unimaginative, though. Lots and lots of tiny platforms or islands with nothing interesting on them. The jumping in Ultima IX was actually one of the better things about that game IMO, though whether that's because jumping was so good or the rest of the game so disappointing is hard to say.

If jumping was used in SOTA, I'd like it to use a system similar to U9's. Something like this: you hold down the space bar (or whatever button is jump) to put a targeting reticule in the center of the screen. Aim at the spot you want to jump to, and if it's in range, is a legal walking plane, and has no obstructions you jump to that spot. If not you don't even move. Don't even run any collision physics on it once the jump is started, and don't allow jumping without a valid target. That should prevent most glitching into impassible spots. Make the range and the clearable obstruction height based on your acrobatics skill and encumbrance.

That would introduce another wrinkle to my idea for jumping over traps. There could be a trap at near the beginning of a dungeon that you could jump over on the way in, but once you're loaded down with loot it becomes impassable. If the player realizes this with a pack of trolls coming down the hall for her, all the better. (And of course not all traps would be activated by stepping on a surface. Some would just be proximity, or sound activated, or triggered by certain item in the player's possession, or really the possibilities are endless. Jumping should be one of many possible solutions, and I hope that traps aren't simple matters of using your disable trap skill and letting the RNG decide the outcome.)

 

You make a lot of good points and I'm gonna read it again later because I'm way out of it right now. I'm sure theres a better way of putting it in words but the
main point I was trying to make is this. When more depth is added to the game, how big of a laundry list of Zelda or Mario type mechanics do you wan't the team
to have to support. Because the more, the longer updates will take and the less that will be left to the imagination. I'm not so sure traps couldn't be made more
complex without a visual fulfillment of all the aspects of it. Even though I think its neat to merge game genres I don't think a melting pot of genres always
makes for the best game. I'm more interested in the potential of improving on aspects of rpg games before they had platform mechanics. When more was left to
the imagination and the choices weren't limited to the time it takes to create a virtual world as realistic as possible. Kinda like people say the book was better
then the movie. You could have the right idea, I just wanted to try and explain where I was coming from better. I kinda like the idea of a
a completely text based rpg with 2d, non animated, graphic support and U.I. elements though. So perhaps we are hoping for a different direction or perhaps
what your saying won't be as much of a hinderance as I think. Really though I'm way out of it right now I'm gonna read your post again tomorrow when I'm thinking more clearly.
I'm well aware that 3d gameplay is gonna play a huge role and I'm excited about it, I'm just
talking on a more philosophical level.

 

Not having jumping just feels so natural to me.

Especially in this day and age when people have played games like Assassin's Creed and such.

Feeling "locked" onto the 2d-plane and not being able to jump over short objects (fences, etc) annoys me.

Personally I'd much rather have jumping then the ability to "sit" in a seat, which (for me) I probably one use that much compared to ho wmuch I'd like to be able to jump over objects and things in my way.

 

Not being able to jump onto things, over things, and to things seems like a big issue to me. I understand it takes more dev work, but I think it is well worth it. The feeling of constraints in a world that I can only run in place while trying to climb a 2 foot high boulder, instead of being able to climb/jump on top of it... is very strong, and I think, very bad. It totally breaks the immersion and exploration feel.
I like to hike and adventure in the real world, and while I don't hop around like a kangaroo, I do climb boulders, jump from one rock to the next, and climb things to gain a higher ground to view the area around me.

I agree with Stiler above me, I'd much rather be able to simply jump than sit on things. I play rangers/rogues. Mobility, jumping, and high ground are important to me, as is the ability to escape by leaping from, say as Lord British said wouldn't be happening, one roof to the next. :\

 

Jumping has kind of been a traumatic experience for Ultima fans... and for good reasons, because of Ultima VIII. But as someone mentioned above, I think Ultima IX handled it in a really good way - there was nothing arcadish about it, you just aimed where you wanted to jump and pressed space : if the reticulre was green, you'd success, if it was yellow you might fail, if it was red you'd fail. I'm actually rather baffled no other RPG ever used a similar system and we're stuck with a more acradish approach than can feels out of place. But the way it worked in Ultima IX made jumping and climbing more a natural way to move around in the virtual 3D world rather that being an annoying mechanics to put jumping puzzles (indeed U9 only had one of those as I recall).

I don't know, but this seems like the kind of thing that could work in SOTA if implemented in a similar fashion (indeed when I saw these spikes coming out the ground in the dungeon... it just felt natural that we should be able to jump over them), and well this could even be tied into a skill for instance, with a higher skill allowing you to manage longer jumps or higher chances of success. If jumping were to be implemented though, I would argue to avoid the arcadish jumping that plagues this kind of game, with people eventually moving while jumping around which makes it looks a bit silly. But as a mechanics similar to Ultima IX, where you can jump to get to specific/hiddens areas, or jump around traps or pitfall in dungeons (or for intance there is hole : do you descend or jump over it?)... I think this could work and add a literral dimension to the gameworld while avoiding the pitfalls of making arcadish mechanics that would ruin the RPG experience. Indeed I feel not being able to jump in a 3D world often feels wrong, especially with the kind of view SOTA is using.

OTOH it's true there are downsides to this, since you need to think the world building with this jumping ability, so this might complicate things for developpers. We also don't want people jumping mindlessly around, and well... let's avoid all the people who'd jump to their death from the top or their home (though I guess perhaps there could be invisible barriers or things like that to prevent this).

So count me in for jumping possibilities, as long as it's made into a thought out RPGish mechanics and not something arcadish.

-Sergorn

 

I feel that not being able to jump in a modern openworld RPG would feel off. I'd like to be able to jump as freely as possible, but the mechanics should be fairly realistic, which would automatically get rid of the main concerns people seem to have against it (such as bunnyhopping or jumping around in combat).
- There should be a substantial stamina cost (limits needless jumping and makes jumping in combat ineffective)
- You should move considerably slower by jumping compared to running. This is where many games that have jumping fail - allowing to move at the same speed or even faster by jumping is what leads to people jumping around like bunnies while traveling.
- No absurdly high jumps, around 1 meter (3-4 feet) high jumps would be fine. Higher jumps look silly and make it harder for developers to limit movement when it's needed.
- Preferably not being able to control your jump midair, at least not by much.

Those mechanics alone should be enough to make jumping add immersion by allowing to use it in cases where it makes sense (jumping over streams, fallen logs, fences etc.), instead of reducing it by having people bunnyhopping around without reason.

The only other argument against I've seen is that it would take too much dev time. Has it been such a huge problem in other open world RPGs though? I know there will always be some spots where you can get to unintended places or end up stuck, but from my experience they have always just been a minor nuisance in games, and not a reason to limit a fairly core part of movement. Of course it takes some effort to minimize such occurences, but not that much I feel. If any serious ones are discovered by players, they could be patched pretty fast (plus they'll have access to a good amount of alpha and beta testers).

 

Once you leave the ground, you should have NO control over your trajectory.

I had a friend once who was very accomplished at Karate. He always used to laugh at people who'd use these extravagant flying kicks. His teacher hammered into him early that he must keep his feet on the ground, since once you leave the ground in a spectacular flying drop kick, you are just a ballistic object, unable to control direction, or speed, and unable to react to anything until you are back on the ground again. Sounds to me like a good opportunity to impale yourself on someone's blade.

Jumping is a normal, natural activity, but I don't see much utility for it in fighting.

 

No jumping please. Almost every MMO where jumping exists just leads to jumping around when bored, or to time-filling jumping puzzles that wind up feeling janky due MMOs not being action games. Stick to focusing on the things that matter with your limited time/resources.

 

What if jumping was treated as an emote. Like any other emote, it would get better as you skilled up. It would move you a specific distance, height and breadth, modified by encumbrance and emote mastery. Most of the same limits would apply (can't jump to a surface on a higher z-axis, or anywhere you couldn't reach by walking). There would really not be any benefits to jumping other than the act itself (whee!), and emote mastery, however it would allow the emote to be automatically triggered in certain situations (walking off a cliff, for example, ala Zelda).

 

I vote for Jumping. I would be totaly fine whitout jumping if this game would be 2D like UO, but in 3D open world for me personaly.. its not so pleasent that cant jump and i know a lot other ppl too who find it realy annoying when you cant get past some like small rock in the map and gw1 was realy horrible examble of this.. and the maps felt so tube cos of it.. and all the annoying running to get past some silly spot cos the character cant jump over small object or fell down. There have been already good ideas what to consider and take on mind, like somekind stamina that cant jump constantly and something realistic kind off jumping. Other think i find funy is that ppl say that they see a lot ppl constantly jumping that it would be annoying.. Which is not so common tbh, i can even stand on daoc/wow/gw2 bigest city which is always full of players, and ppl dont jump there around stupidly, even if someone would they rarely do and its nothing to try annoy you but only enjoy the game. Not even so common to jump on pvp(well on gw2 they have the dodge system which is diferent think, and on wow even if you stupidly jump you wont avoid the hits if you been targeted and on range). Its all about how well you implement the jumping and just adding the stamina system kills useless jumping. And even if some ppl will jump, it wont kill the game for me.. and i dont think it should be that big reason to kill it to enyone.. or cant you stand people jumpin even in real life and have fun? or do you think in that world people dont jump? since its normal that the people can jump.. or maybe its like someone already posted that the avatars fear jumping and thats why we dont get it . Then i understand ofc

And if you fear that ppl could somehow abuse jumping on pvp(what they again could not whit the stamina/realistic jump), well same think ppl can abuse already that you cant jump system to theyr advance. Like whit some ranged character kills the melee char behind some object he cant jump around to come kill you.. even if realy he should be possible to whitout the silly restriction. Other is like if your defending some keep on siege, why could you not jump/climb on the wall to shoot atackers? Or if atacker and there is some biger rock.. climb up to it to get beter change shoot your range weapon or setup siege weapon there (dont know ofc if there will be something like this, other than monster sieges)

And if you see someone who have been enought bored to somehow jump some house roof/some wierd place where realy should not be possilbe.. who cares? Its not wierd you see someone at roof even rl.. maybe he is just fixing it? Or getting to some wierd map spot where.. in the end you win nothing and get stuck, should not bother you cos its not enything out of you. Im sure it might add some very small extra work on some dungeons, but as long they build it on mind and maybe even use in theyr advance, it can be even more great game and bring even more people.

There is much much more biger reasons for sure to fear what might kill the game for you than seeing ppl jumping rarely and enjoy it even if you dont personaly


And i asked my friend opinion of jumping too, and she sayd this:

"ppl can run around and spam skills, throw stuff, make noises, spam emotes, chat - there's lots of more annyoing things than jumping, and jumping can add a) bit off fun b) feeling of a freedom c) makes physics and world more 'real' d) adds bit of tactic play - hight gives you some advantage, if you're ranged etc."

"I understand nostalgia, but... this is just silly, invis walls don't make your game experience better o_o"

 

Okay, I've read through the six pages and am ready to voice my opinion. The more interaction options all the characters have with the environment the better the simulation experience. The more story and gameplay takes advantage of a carefully designed simulation experience, the more enjoyable the game will be.

There are many ways to improve interaction between characters and the world itself, and I truly expect development in several of these for SotA. Does jumping need to be one of them? Not specifically, especially if others are less troublesome to implement. I feel it is very important to design the environment to avoid situations where you see low fences or small logs and rocks bordering areas that are meant to be impassible. If it seems your character should be able to jump over or climb over them no problem, that would just be agitating whether your character has the ability in the game or not. All the areas that are intended to be impassible need to be designed to look impassible. (please no invisible walls)

What I'd really like to see is something original and simulated realistically in a way that we don't typically see in other games.

Many have brought up swimming as a feature like jumping. I'd like to see that characters react to getting wet. (like a dryness meter) Weight to encumbrance should be cut in half when swimming, jumping or running, but especially swimming. If a character does get soaked to the bone, whether from jumping into frigid water, or spending the day out in the rain, it should have realistic consequences.. a %chance to get sick, requiring a visit with either a healer or a couple nights in an inn with hot meals to 'cure' the sickness..

When it's raining or cold, building a fire, standing by a fireplace or furnace and finding shelter should be ways to prevent various stats from decreasing due to the weather.

Unlimited jumping? It's just not that realistic. Much like the unlimited running I'm use to seeing in MMOs. If any jumping and running is available in game it should be limited with a realistic amount of endurance and encumbrance. When we get mounts, they should be able to run and jump things that gives us access to new shortcuts or access to areas not previously available. But that's something that can be added in the next episode.

 

For me being able to jump is high on my wish list, and I want it totally free-form. With the game being this early in the development process I will probably find myself referencing Asheron's Call a lot around here. It was my first MMORPG, back when the genre was young, and it greatly shaped my ideas for what makes a good game. In AC you can jump anywhere, just like you could fall off a ledge if you walked off it. The same thing is implemented in WoW, and I love it. The great thing about the way it's implemented in those games is that falling too far causes damage. You jump off the roof, well, you better hope you can handle the hit. In Asheron's Call if a monster jumped off a wall above and landed on you, you took damage.

Now, I don't know what happened in AC since I stopped playing, but when I played there was never any formal implementation of jumping as a means to complete a task. And I know that in WoW it's the same, at least in every quest I've played. You limit the height and distance a player can fall, you add in a penalty if they fall too far, and you don't add a jump requirement to a quest. I just can't see a down side to it if those factors are kept in mind. Dragon Age for instance is a fun game. Yet it frustrates the hell out of me when I can't hit space and jump over a crack in the ground, or if I want to go down a level and have to run around to the stairs instead of just jumping over the pitifully short railing.

 

Thanks for letting us know you are listening, Sir. A little direct encouragement goes a long way.

 

OTOH, jumping itself does NOT have to be twitch based. The UI could include a few options like "try to climb here" "do a standing long jump from here" and "toss a grapnel up" that don't require any dexterity, but are instead all decision based. Then shortcuts to hidden areas could be subtly hidden, and players would have to learn where they were, but could try experimentation. Yes, some people would work their way along an edge hitting every option once per foot, and that would mirror what happens in the real world. If I go to half-dome, I guarantee you that this novice climber could find and hire a guide who knows where every handhold and every hidden way up is. Track the info trail back, and you will find a group of obsessive climbers who attacked that rock week in and week out, risking their lives, just to figure out where the path was.

 

I really want jumping in. I think that the best way to implement it would be ala Asheron's Call; with more realistic physics. When you press the spacebar a jump-meter goes up and it's only when you release it that you actually jump. Simple, and would prevent heavy jump-spamming.

 

Since we are 6 pages in, I wanted to bring LBs comments early on (page 1 and 2) back to the forefront in case people missed it...