Let's settle this once and for all. Card combat, Good or Bad

Well if they test out some ideas on the QA server perhaps we can resolve this.

 

I was talking about the risk of not having the skill you want when you want it, sorry if I wasn't clear

I've only been here a few days, but I've seen you say you'd be happy with any other mmo's combat system ... well the locked bar system in SotA is very close to ESO's, that was my point - you seem to be upset that if people choose the random way, they get "perks" that the locked hotbar option doesn't provide, I just don't understand that mentality, that's all

 

Even though I don't hate the card combat system I voted no. I actually think it could work with a lot more work put into it. But to be honest the more I think about it the more I think that time and money could be much better spent on others things and just making a simple combat system would be the way to go. I will not quit the game if it goes in however.

 

ESO isn't exactly getting rave reviews. As I already mentioned, the locked system has so many penalties that the "perk" of being able to actually use an ability when you need it doesn't trump all the penalties it shackles you with nor does it compete with a random deck, particularly in PvP. So yeah, they have an "alternative", but it's "either use the random deck or be second class with a locked hotbar". No one's celebrating the locked hotbar for a reason.

 

I love the concept of the deck system, what can be achieved through it. I remember reading What Chris wanted to achieve with this system and i liked the goals; i thought it was possible to reach them (i still do). But to reach its full potential the combat system needs a lot of work, as an independent system and as something related with almost everything in the game (Character progression, Skill structure, UI, PVP and PVE mechanics). We all can see the flaws on the current implementation of the system, and that's why i think they'll stand up to make it worthwhile as soon as they finish putting in a "first iteration" of almost everything the game's supposed to have for episode 1. Combat system will get attention because is obvious it's far from being finished and i don't believe Devs thinks otherwise.

Regarding the OP question, If current implementation of the combat system were the final version of it, i would be very dissapointed knowing it could have been better. But that's not something to think right now, because we're still making this game; that's why i'm currently looking forward for the moment when combat gets in the spotlight again.

 

when do we stop saying "we are a long way off and it still needs lots of work, but we will make it", and switch over to saying "this still needs a lot of work and we are running out of time"? OR how about this... "they may not have any intention of fixing it because it is working as designed"?

Should they keep postponing episode one so they can keep modifying the core features of the combat system? I have a feeling we are seeing the core features now. We are testing the core features. They might make some additions like more strategy but the fundamentals don't appear like they are going to change.

So what I'm gathering is stacking and combining (forcing us to constantly micromanage the deck) is clearly a conscious design decision that isn't going to change.

 

In my mind it at least needs balancing and my understanding was balancing the whole combat system (including between locked/unlocked/hybrid decks) was expected to come as late as possible before release, because if it is done sooner, it will just have to be rebalanced again.

 

I'm not a big fan of the deck system myself, and others I've brought into the game aren't either. I feel like the devs have made their minds up to stick with it, so it won't matter that many of us don't like it, we just have to deal with it. I hope they have a plan for improvements. I don't know what they should do to fix the problems many of us have with it, but I surely don't want it to be a game breaker for people when the game goes live.

 

The combat mechanics themselves aren't really the negatives of ESO. There were rather serious balance issues, annoying late-game progression and more than a few bugs leaving people with a less than stellar experience. It's a lot better now and the new reviews and second opinions are starting to show it. That being said, SOTA is nothing at all like ESO with the locked deck system. There are far more skills and they're more developed and varied in ESO. There's active blocking and a bash that lets you interrupt spells and exploit slow, strong attacks to leave your opponent open. There are various AoEs to run or roll out of. There are skills to support and heal and provide crowd control. There's an open skill system where only three trees out of around a couple dozen are determined by your class and your armor and weapon choice is entirely up to you. Basically, it has all of your little MMO combat necessities and a few extras. It has very solid combat.

 

Ermmm? are we playing the same game? , did you seriously tested Locked Deck Cooldowns???? (Locked Deck users cant use combos btw)
Locked Deck is pointless,in my opinion it should be completely removed.
And ofc noone would use Locked Deck in PVP, its just suicide.

 

Fair enough, and it sounds like it'd be fun. Which only makes me ask, what in the world does that system have to do with this mutant card system that Hraw was referring to?

 

I really don't think they thought SotA should have anything to do with pvp at all, sorry. PvP - I did it in UO on Europa in the guild NDK, the bounty was paid in power scrolls, and it was fast and furius and depending on skill (I never was a Top PvPer, just "footman", but liked the speed and ruthlessness) and I see nothing in the combat system at the moment that will make pvp in SotA being anything compared to this! Maybe this game is meant to be different in combat being just a walk on a sunday afternoon, you will have tea with some cookies afterwards. If I will play SotA (at the moment I don't due to boredom), it will certainly not be because of combat.

 

uhmmm, where did he say locked decks combo? I could only find where he says unlocked decks combo.

Besides, maybe the point is, you have that long cooldown because it is locked, you can always use it and don't have to wait on the chance/probability for it to pop-up in your deck to use? As a locked deck user, you have an advantage. So, maybe they (Port) tried balancing it vs the unlocked deck of probability. And maybe, it's just not balanced enough yet.

 

That's the argument for why there are penalties, yes. But that doesn't change the fact it castrates locked deck users to the point that it makes the locked deck useless. Take out those penalties and then there's limited reason to use the random deck. That's a teeter-totter that will be difficult to balance, but maybe not impossible.

Where it gets even trickier is making the PvM balanced for both decks without making one too weak for PvM or one too strong for PvM. Then try and balance them, again, for PvP. The system lends itself to a constant juggling act, and will do so whenever new skills or items are introduced into the game. Other games don't have to balance their UI along with skills/classes in both PvM and PvP, and still struggle month after month with every patch.

 

If card combat is here to stay.. and the majority of backers like it.. then I propose we make other facets of the game similar. Perhaps we can have "Card Crafting". Your crafting tools and ingredients begin appearing and disappearing randomly just like your skills during combat. If you click the right tool and ingredients in time - you craft what you intended to. It would be all the randomness and "fun" of card combat and would make for a more consistent game.

What say you, pro-card combat players?

 

Better yet, the start button randomly pops up around the screen and you have to guess where it would be in order to press it and start the game. that would be so much FUN wouldn't it?

 

It is not just a bump in the road. In a game that is dependent upon slaying literally endless monster hordes from coast to coast, combat needs to be good. Very good.

We believe a change in combat system will be both very positive and greatly enhance sota, and likely attract millions of dollars.

Stop insinuating people are bringing the game down by providing feedback.

 

It is not feedback if it is repeated like a broken record by the same people. It is far more akin to trolling. I was simply providing feedback that this constant line of attack is sucking the love out of the game for people including me. I did not say to stop providing feedback, I said be constructive.

Just for fun... here is another poll just like this one. There are others too, but this is the earliest one. Now we can reminisce about the old days.
https://www.shroudoftheavatar.com/f...yone-else-hate-the-proposed-card-system.3128/

 

I thought we were all talking about combat mechanics ... to me the thread topic "Card Combat, good or bad" is obviously about the mechanics, I'm sorry if that was an incorrect assumption on my part - I'm really trying to not come across as argumentative here.

First (Borg), I know combos don't work for locked glyphs - I never said otherwise. And yes I've played with unlocked, locked and hybrid decks enough to know I can achieve the exact same results in PVE with all variations (haven't tried PVP yet).

Next, Raoc actually said the same thing I was trying to say with his first sentence:

All the other stuff in Raoc's reply about ESO is irrelevant. The skills themselves or how many there are or what the trees look like have nothing to do with the combat mechanics. But when I played ESO before it went free to play, solid was not a word I used to describe the whole package (the combat mechanics however were solid - again, I thought that's all we were discussing).

Anyone can set up their SotA combat mechanics to essentially perfectly emulate ESO's mechanics ... same number of slots, same ability to swap between 2 hotbars, same numerical keyboard or mouse input if they don't want to use the random glyph decks. And both games have fairly short cooldowns for essentially all skills. I realize that SotA gives unlocked glyphs shorter cooldowns than locked, but I'm comparing locked vs ESO (combat mechanics wise).

But ... SotA gives us more options way beyond what we would be stuck with if we were playing ESO (again, speaking of combat mechanics only, I'm not comparing the 2 complete games) - SotA's is a creative system that rewards the player who wants to "work harder" during combat and doesn't mind the random (risky) element of never being sure when a skill will be available ... again, it may still need balancing, but giving extra options in this manner to every SotA player is creative and I believe excellent.

It may need balancing so the risk/reward for dealing with randomness during combat is better matched in the PVP environment - but then again, PVP is where people tend to use macro programs to get their rotations perfectly automated and I believe no macro program out there would work with the random decks / stacking / combos in SotA (if there is such a macro program out there, please don't enlighten me).