Levels VS Skills (voting)

80% !!!

 

Dems the one!

 

I do want to clarify my vote. I think there is a third option and that's gain XP, spend XP to buy skills.

Taking that middle road means I can level my character up as I please. It means if I've been grinding a while and I just want 'something' I can buy a lower skill that might make the difference. If I want to just grind up one skill really far and not worry about others it might take some time, but I don't have anyone to blame but myself. The power and choice is on me.

With skill % I have to grind each skill individually up and that can often lead to boring patches, or no one being interesting unless they've maxed it out. It's a steady climb, but it's steep and you can't transfer one climbs progress anywhere else.

With leveling for points it lets me be a little more flexible in how I raise my skills, but it still is an all or nothing point jump. If I need just a little something to make the grind easier to take, too bad. I'm on the hook for it until I level. And then a rush of advancement, then nothing. Plateau after plateau after plateau.

The buy a skill also gives you a small sense of ding. Not as much as leveling, but it's still fun to go to a trainer and see those new skills light up, and decide which one you're going to train in and/or raise.

 

It's not that simple... If you want to learn math in the real world I mean... If you just pay 10000 dolars to your teacher can you learn math without studing just because you are already very good at grammar? No! If you can do that in the game then this is not the type of game I want to play... I hope there is a way I can sell my steam key of the next expansions because I already spent good money in this game to get disappointed like that.
If the problem is waste time grinding then make the level system for stats points and some basic skills and leave the % system to unlock the speciliaziation.. Or like swordmanship 100% increse greatly sword damage or something like that... I just dont want to play the usual MMO system.. I hope they do something decent but I already regret buy it so soon, I should have waited the launch... Never buy a game before its done, its the third time I do that and third time I regret... The game never turns out as we expect when there's no selling pressure... I wont forget this lesson next time.

 

What you CAN do in real life though is hire a college math professor to be your private tutor, taking lots of time to teach you at your speed, and with a good teacher working one to one with you, it's amazing how fast a smart person can learn. With ONLY those private tutoring sessions. So money and determination CAN result in sudden jumps in skill, when applied through the right tutor.

 

Yes but it takes planning, time and hard work! Not just click and change the points.. then after finish math graduation I decide I should have made grammar instead so I just reset my points and put it on grammar yey! haha seriously.. Ok not everyone wants realism I understand that but in this game thats what I expected but I guess I was wrong.. I should have just invested that money and time in UO asked them to make a improved version on the forum, maybe I would have had more luck, maybe not but at least I would have what I expect. Im very disappointed but lets see.. I still have a little hope they will listen to us

 

You are referring to respec, not leveling. There's no way to say, nor justification to try saying, that when I walk my character up to the trainer I haven't been role-playing dedication, planning, and hard work. Nor is it fair to say that time has not been invested.

Respec is a video game tool, it's true. There is nothing in real life that lets us abandon all we have learned and suddenly progress to an equivalent degree in an alternate path. But this IS a video game. While it may be simulating reality, it's simulating the reality that amuses us, and is valuable for exactly and only that reason. Consider the following:

If you were presented with a game, finished, final, with perfect graphics, flawless gameplay, and perfectly intuitive controls, but the scenario it depicted was being the new fish in a prison riot, being hunted relentlessly by savage guards and a horrifically obsessed gang of "Bull Fag" inmates, it would NOT be a fun game. It would quickly wind up being banned by international treaty. I could even imagine the sick minds that had written the game facing jail time.

The point I make is that in order to be desirable, this game should represent a scenario that people want to PLAY. Part of that scenario is characters that we want to play. Now I get that it's insulting when someone power levels past on a cheapo PvE build, and then respecs to a textbook PvP build they got off the interwebs, but I'd rather face that insult than the one that results from not having a way to respec at all. I don't WANT to play super-hard-core "make a mistake and pay for it for the rest of your life". I get enough of that in REAL LIFE, and it sucks here too. My relaxation should include the occasional grace to allow for me to fix my mistakes and try again with a better plan.

Respeccing also allows the devs to introduce new content that radically alters the game without shafting all pre-existing players. When a new skill tree comes out that invalidates (completely by accident) certain builds, the players using those builds should have an easy way to abandon ship. They are still starting over, but they get a big boost as a courtesy.

I do agree that respeccing should be somewhat controlled, perhaps a high in game cost or long cooldown (A week? Two? More?), but I think that at it's fundament, respec is a good thing.

 

I get your point... not many people want to play a game that is too hard and punishing and many of the ones who plays end up doing cheats and macros to keep up. Thats a important point to consider but destroy the game essence because of that its not something that should be taken in consideration. Theres plenty of other ways to solve those problems like making tutorials, reducing the rates to make the skill go up faster, they can make a NPC that sell BOOKS to help increase skill % faster and even allow the NPC to teach up to 50% of the skill so the player have a good chance to try the skill before leveling it up. What makes the game hard is not the system but the numbers, how it is balanced.

Ok a level system is something unreal... but acceptable to make the game simpler, easier to understand. Just leave the advanced skills out of it... Use the level points for status and the most basic skills like throw and swing weapon and leave mastery skills as %. For example.. the way you fight with a sword is different the way you fight with an axe so a guy that uses more a sword should't have the same damage with an axe. This is not making the game harder.. its giving it details, those things makes the game seem more real, more fun. If the system of the game is based on something solid it will survive over decades because players will not get tired of it easily. You will be able to use things you learn by your experience ingame to help you organize your own life. Thats the kind of experience I had with UO and thats what makes me adore that game so much. I mean I like RPGs but Im not a MMORPG player I play FPS and RTS types of game most of the time... Those differentials are what makes so much people want to play this game, without it its just another of the thousands MMORPG on the market that I own and played until higher level but still despise for being just time and money consumers without pratical utility that yes Ultima Online have despite the outdated graphics and game engine.

I agree with you.. too much hardcore it's not good but I'm sure we can get into a understanding between simplicity, realism and practicity if we try instead of just give it up and go the easier way.

 

If you were talking to me, it kind of does.

So, I'm out adventuring, I'm getting attacked by people with spears, and spells, and along side other people with different techniques and watching all them, so when I get back to a trainer I take all that I've seen and apply the experience (huh... huh... see what I did there?) towards learning some new skills. They may be a continuation of what I've already been practicing, or something entirely new.

Lets take your example, if you're good at grammar, it would probably be easier to read books and other math lessons. Wouldn't it? It would be one less obstacle to overcome in assimilating the new info.

Lets take a different example. In my martial arts class, ballerinas (seem to) have the easiest time learning new stuff. They literally advance faster as they're using what they learned there in learning how to fight. People in other sports can use their strength and skills they've picked up doing those to just get over some of the initial hurdles someone who's done nothing with it would have to work on.

Ultimately though, when you go to a trainer, you're taking for granted that it's happening. Like using a toilet, or 8 hours of sleep, study sessions aren't ultimately engaging gameplay so we take it as happened and get back to the action.

 

Well I'm talking to everyone not specifically you I'm here to discuss, that how we are reaching a consensus... I understand what you are saying and I also agree with it. Someone with a high combat level should learn % mastery skills faster because he would already be used to see it. And also used to handle weapons and armory so he would have a faster learning in blacksmithing and anything else basically.

Therefore my opinion is that the skill system should use the level system as base and the % mastery skills as an advanced feature to more specific techniques like critical weapon damage or better item quality chance in crafting skills. As higher as the base level is, the faster the speed the avatar learn the mastery skill, this way someone that put much time leveling up will need significantly less time to reach high levels of % mastery skills . I hope they do something like this because exclude the % skills system just because it may be too complicated is a big waste.

 

In point of fact, this has been suggested and the fans seemed to love it.

A talent buy system to build character design, use based skills that level up once you have them.

 

First off, haven't played the game, so this is based off what I have read here and other parts of the forum.

Leveling based. So increase level fighting, heavy armor, swords. Get to where you can get high level spells and such. Respec into that. With no previous experience besides observation of others.

Yes/No?

This sub mastery. General levels.

As you go through life fighting, crafting, growing, reading, or even running around delivering mail.
You gain life experience, ie Levels.
Submastery. Someone who runs every day won't pick up a sword and wield it like a sword master. So why not add levels to the actual skills. Even if you have the points to gain Grandmaster Fire Mage. If you haven't used skills on that path to earn the levels needed to use the higher spells, you're not gonna be able to cast them without working experience handling fire magic.

Sub Mastery could even have passive effects. For example.
2 People cooking. both pick up a carrot for chopping into stew. Both can cook but one has been at it a year while the other has been a housewife who has cooked for family and friends for 10 years.
Who do you think will chop the carrot faster and more accurately. (Yes some people are talented and that goes a long way to evening things out but games don't usually count that in*curses*)

So leveling up through doing anything, experiencing life in general. However to learn something totally different from what you have done you need to be taught, then practice this teaching. Direct one on one teaching(mentoring), taught by a trainer(boosted exp gain for n% time), personal experience and observation.

The observation, watching other players, either as an active or passive ability allowing one to gain sub exp on skills. At a certain point the subskill has leveled beyond the point where the spell/skill gains anymore. (Each skill gains limited passive gains from sub mastery) Once this has happened the option to Teach another player, who has the minimum skill requirements, can happen.

Just my 2 cents.

PS: Personally, I have come to dislike the straight level system. It's too boring.
(Edit Clarify: Boring because 6-12 months later because there are massive Exp boosts added to rocket people past content just to get to endgame.)

 

I'm more concerned with how utterly unfun the combat system is compared to UO. PVM, PVP, whatever. I remember in the game pitch LB criticised WoW like games for just having a skill bar with toolbars where you just sat watching the cooldown timers on your best attack buttons rather then watching the fight. Sure it's a slightly more flexible toolbar and they've disguised the cooldown timers a little by combining them with some RNG... But your focus is even more directed to the toolbar now. This isn't innovation.

If redoing the skill system means they have to gut the current combat system I'm all for it. I always did prefer you get good at what you do. Hit 50 rats with a club to learn to cast a fireball? A classes system is only half of it. The fans he appealed to wanted another ultima or another UO. Not another wow clone.

 

I have joined at release 14,i played in 15 and 16,but i did hit only lvl 50ish coz i dont like the skill system,i dont like the combat system and the game is not what i have expected . I do hope that they will fix it and i will wait till release.if they dont make it right ill do the best i can to get my money back.Btw why tryng different skill system when every one loved the prevous one (im talking UO)?

 

This Game IS NOT ULTIMA..
new game, new systems

 

I usually say skills... but I like the way they've handled the level system in sota...

 

So what where you expecting, just curious. You're not really seeing the game anyway. They are giving us hints here and there. Like lately we have needed keys for doors and the NPCs if grilled a little deeper will tell you some very interesting things. There are still much that is not in like fishing comes in R20 I heard. We don't have treasure hunting. Taming is coming soon or at least the first interation of taming. Regarding the skill system many would vote against it I'm sure, but since we have it hopefully it is not just a skill system and more depth is added and planned for it. Which is suppose to happen with training and quests. You won't just get levels in crafting for example, there will be more to it than that. I am really excited for dragons also. Oh well putting money into a game is always a risk and I don't expect anything back from it. It's not like returning a broken appliance when it breaks, even that is iffy now a days. Also I am happy when theh Devs do chime in to impatience, like Lum saying there is a limit to the questts we see since features aren't in like NPCs can't follow us yet. Believe me more is coming.

 

Hate to go against the flow, but I kinda like points based assignment.

Skill grinding requires me to grind a specific skill to get better at it. This leads me to change my game play focus for possibly days on end to just do that. The game becomes about leveling that skill, not playing the whole game in a bigger picture. That may or may not be as fun.

Points assignment means that I can do whatever I want in game that I enjoy when I want to do it, still earn from that, and then assign the experience to skills as I see fit. It is in my control, instead of the game's control. It is much more flexible and, from one perspective, not the same grind.

I can see why others like the skill-usage approach. There is a certain logic to it. However, that approach just feels like a less 'sandbox' type approach to me because it requires me to do what the game requires to improve, rather than what I might want to do to improve on any given day.

 

Well the only thing i love at the moment in game is the community :/.It may be my mistake,but i did expected something different,something more ....I stil belive in the Devs,im just tryng to push the flow the way i think is gona be better . We probably have different point of view,but when i put money in something i did have expectations.This is the only game that i have pledged pre-alpha,that should show how much i love and trust this guys !

 

They want the game to be different from the 100 other mmo's out there. The difference most people were hoping for, was a UO Skill-based type system, which is still different because no other MMO does it. Instead they've chosen to be different by using a system the vast majority of people funding the game do not enjoy, and frankly doesn't even work that well.

Using something new just for the sake of using something new doesn't make for a good game when that new thing isn't good.

Out of 140 people, nearly 80% would choose the skill based system, that alone should mean something.