What is actually allowed regarding AFK-Farming?

thanks for the ideas odyssey2001! been focusing on key/mouse bindings in game and in my mouse software, and my kepyad too, haven't gotten to the next step which i belive you just recommended. it'll get me used to how Augmented Reality is going to work, i think, a bit early too heheh

 

So your first complaint is you dont want to see others using the same thing over again? Even though they were just using stealth over again to level it? Thats its not even an offensive skill to only use in combat and see the same thing of repeatedly by everyone?

I wonder if that person or yourself even does pvp, no offense, for you guys to be affected in that sense, or that this person just used that hypothetical situation to try to justify their reaction even though that situation does not apply to themselves at all.

 

if i were to use stealth standing next to you in a pve environment and neither of us flagged, and i leveled up in it while using it, would you see that yellow thing?
what about in a pvp environment, would you see that level up following me around as i move?

 

Of course the OP is correct.

No doubt you can macro, AFK, fast from adventure level zero to very high levels in relatively short order. You can loot the mobs and get stinkin' rich as well. Being able to "play" the game, rather efficiently, while you sleep - well, that's an advantage. It's not small.

Coming from a game like Shadowbane where every player was a macro genius by default (FFS there's even a special awesome macro program just for SB), this game is super simple to script.

This, combined with the goofy SPO "feature" creates a real problem. I wish I knew the answer, but there definitely needs to be one. In my mind the only practical answer lies somewhere in removing or truly separating the SPO feature combined with software to detect patterns associated with afk macroing. That software would trigger a randomly placed pop-up serving essentially as a captcha to ensure the player is not afk. The only penalty if the captcha is not satisfied within, say, 6o seconds, is some sort of extreme PvP flag which causes full inventory loot and leaves when the player zones.

That would probably work.

 

Since the Obsidian Wolf is many , many levels above the mobs in Greymark forest - just set it so that no or minimal XP is gained by doing this. This isn't combat, it's slaughter.

The difference in pet vs mob level is indicator enough. There are better ways of getting results without impacting new players.

 

How is the issue standing on a wagon? How is it OK to afk farm under any circumstances? Furthermore, how does this not worry all of you that people can do this in single player online with little to no chance of being caught and then swap over to multiplayer?

All of these are terrible for every aspect of the game from progression to economy. Under no circumstances should afk farming be acceptable after release, in single player or multiplayer. It would destroy the game and turn it into the laughing stock of the gamer world.

Just one more problem in a long list of problems created by letting people swap between single, multi, and pvp modes. Looking grim.

 

Captain Jack wonders though, there really is no difference in Multiplayer Online AFK farming. Captain Jack can't just walk up and take someone out who is doing it... Nobody is going to flag PvP and AFK farm, unless they forget and that would be pretty rare Captain Jack thinks.

There is no danger in AFK farming, thus no deterrent. Captain Jack's only suggestion would be to spawn in a dangerous (more than usual)PvE encounter in range of the Player after they have been in the same scene for a period of time. Make the time random after a baseline. This is far less than ideal, but, other games do use this method.

 

I'm dead shocked more players here don't seem to be as concerned as you are (rightly so) about it.

 

That's exactly my suggestion to deter this behavior.

1. Only allow MMO farmed assets into the MMO world, period.
2. Use software to detect patterns likely associated with macroing.
3. On detection, send a pop-up capcha to confirm it's not a macro.
4. If not confirmed within 120 seconds, PvP flag turns on.

 

What is wrong with allowing a pet to tank a creature? That they can tank some creatures at lower levels themselves as they level up is to be expected. It works that way in every game that has pets.

 

Oh if only you could pickpocket those afk players macroing.

Everyone deserves a safe space though so it is fine by me.

 

The issue is obviously that it is afk, not that a pet is tanking. Besides the fact that a pet doing 100% of the dps while the player sits in total safety doing nothing is not really "tanking"

 

Just several thoughts,

- How often are the elves respawning? Why not limit mobs/resources respawning in an area being actively watched by a player? It would make macro-grinding pointless.

- Eventually, we'll have nutrition in the game. If there were more survival elements, like consequences to being hungry or tired, it would be harder to macro, because you'd have to come back to the game from time to time to deal with these things. Plus, also if you had to feed your pet.

- If low-tier spells were tied to reagents, it would be more difficult to spam invisibility.

- If a player is able to climb something, so should human/fomorian mobs.

 

I'm going to interject here because some people seem to be under the mistaken assumption that there are easy ways to stop bots or macros.

There is no such thing as a bot-proof captcha.

The best you can do is make situations that are difficult for bots to deal with.

So for example, on page 5 we've had two suggestions:
1. pop up a captcha in a random place
2. Spawn a high level monster

#1 is a fairly standard, super simple anti-bot measure, that will become ineffective roughly 35 seconds after it is put in.
Random placement has no meaning to a bot. Because as long as something exists, the bot can know about it, where it is, etc. Especially if it uses client interfacing and not just screen capture. But even screen capture is rediculously simple.
All the bot really has to do is have a sub-part that says "look for a window that looks like xxx.bmp and click it where-ever it pops up after waiting a random time between 5seconds and 59 seconds to avoid detection".
Ability to detect this: Near impossible.
Common methods to detect - counters:
Timing logging - use randomized timers for all bot actions
"Guardian" programs like wow etc use to monitor memory for macro programs - Since this bot relies on screen capture, the game can run within a virtual machine and the bot program runs outside of it, sending commands in.

#2. is much more difficult, and requires a much more complex bot. At this point the bot would be programmed to detect when any animal/npc not in the zone spawn list.txt of the current area it's in spawns, then immediately run to the exit and zone out.
Still defeatable, but requires much more work (detection of npcs, ability to move in the map), and is more likely to be hooked into the client, which is also more detectable since it can't use the VM isolation mentioned above as easily.


So, with that in mind, remember, the two main approaches to preventing abuse is either:
1. Redesign the system so people don't feel the need to bot or otherwise don't gain much from botting vs normal play
2. Design anti-bot methods that require more complex bots to defeat, with more knowledge of the game state.

Both of those take development time and staff resources, and #2 is a never ending cat-mouse game.
So lets try to focus on #1 whenever possible.

 

I mean, not really. There may be guys out there who can get around a simple program like that, but your average gamer - no way.

Wouldn't be perfect, but it would absolutely be a meaningful deterrent.

 

No, it wouldn't.
Remember, the nice thing about the digital age is all it takes is 1 person to get around it, and everyone can get around it.
Oh sure, it won't be immediate, but the first person will get around it in 35 seconds. Then in a minute, he'll share it to his guildies. In the next day, they'll share it to their friends. And then each day it will propogate friend to friend until everyone has it. Remember, your "average gamer" who uses macros didn't write them, he got them from someone who knew how.

The only person that deters is anyone that would feel guilty using google, i.e. the most honest players who cry when a rabbit accidentally dies.
I mean, in our example of a randomly placed captcha, it's literally 5 steps. Screenshot the captcha, cut it out, save it to an image, put it into your macro that if the image appears anywhere, click at anywhere + x offset + y offset for the button. Anyone smart enouh to make a macro in the first place would be able to do that or quickly learn how the first time they encounter it.

If you need proof, look at every major MMO out there. None of them employ methods like #1 anymore. It was a nice experiment, that was quickly proven ineffective. At best you use a heavily modified #1 that is remotely run by a staffmember, or that has more than 1000 possible images and layouts that are constantly changed/updated so that no one can make a complete list (i.e. daily changes).

 

I don't want people commonly playing SotA, by starting it up, loading a bot program, and walking away until they fell their character is levelup up enough or has collected enough loot that they can start having some fun.

To me, the main reason a regular player would be tempted to do something like this, is to avoid 'the grind'.. grinding is for robots. It's not fun, it's repetitive. So if that's a problem here, then something needs to change about how we level and get loot. It needs to be more fun for players. And repetitive actions should not be effective ways to progress.. accomplishing fun activities and questing and 'playing the game' should be the best, most effective way to progress your character's levels and get loot.

I'm no expert in this topic, but my first thought with the OP wasn't that we should punish people who jump on wagons.. but that the game should be smart enough to deal realistically with a player who's on a wagon. 'Oh no, they went onto that rock! I want to kill them, but.. ooh.. so scary.. i'll just run back to my spot by the cotton bush and pretend they don't exist until they get down' -that's not good gameplay.

I think we'll get there in time. People will be able to shoot from above with range weapons while some NPCs might be smart enough to figure out how to get up to you, and others might not be that smart and run around like chickens or shoot back at you from below. *i hope we'll get there*

 

I don't mean any offense, but regardless of the amount of grind, there will be character progression. PvP focused players mostly do not care if its lengthy or not they will automate as much progression as possible due to the fact they want to spend their playtime fighting other players. The whole point of providing this somewhat common knowledge, is that its offset by the other type of players in the world. The role players, the real RPGers, the explorers, they want to find things and enjoy the simple fun of leveling through gameplay.

So kinda back on topic, how do you satisfy both types of players, since both are needed for a healthy population?

I want to login, look for some fun fights(PvP and/or PvM), and macro while I'm at work or sleeping. If I'm not allowed or able to, I won't, but that's the ideal situation for me. Your ideal situation may be different. Your endgame may be different.

 

No offense taken, I just feel that if people feel the need to 'macro' to avoid parts of the game, then there's something wrong with the game's design. Progression shouldn't be linked to activities that are boring or unfun. It should be fun, and exciting, and the point of playing the game. eThat's why I feel that character progression should be linked to questing and story progression. People will be naturally grouped together by being in the same part of the plot line, and so I really feel that character progression should be bound to this aspect. I've never macroed anything in my life, so maybe I'm biased. But really, if the character progression part can be 'automated' while I'm sleeping, then what's the point of having it at all?? Just make character progression tied directly to *out of game* time.. If it's been 6 months since I bought the game, my character is max level.. and so forth.. I could buy the game, and not play for 6-months, and then get in their and start PvPing with everyone else?? That's basically the same thing as macroing, right? lets cut out the middle man here.

 

You're right about quite a bit here... but some things to note, most PvPers are not interested in questing. Myself for example, would rather grind than go to a quest giver if the grinding is even close to the progression of a quest. Questing isn't fun for me, and neither is grinding, but since I dislike questing I just kill the 5,000 wolves or whatever and go on. Also, offline skilling has been becoming more popular and tried in the past. The problem so far is that the devs always seem to say the same thing: "heres offline gains but online is better" thus people choose to still macro anyways.

There is also some other things to consider, at least from experience in other games. For reference, I'm a UO/Darkfall player. There was always the risk of being found macroing and killed for your macro resources (in some cases, large amounts of regs/resources) which is a whole new mini game of hide a seek. Its quite fun and rewarding for me to stumble upon a macroer and walk away with some phat lewtz. Obviously there is no skill or bragging in killing said macroer, think of it more as a treasure hunt for the PvP type player, at least in my opinion. Its also a gold sink, investing more than needed resources and gold into macroing to do it effectively vs simply being offline and gaining something for nothing. I could list a few more but maybe the point is already made.

The last point is really, who does it hurt? Plus, most of the time the people who macro do so because they have obligations and need to keep up with people actually playing 8, 10 ,12+ hours a day. I get to try and stay competitive while having a job. Its not hard to setup some macros, its preference so why take away mechanics and depth from the game as a whole. Also everyone has a different definition of what is boring or fun so it would be pretty hard for the perfect system to be developed.