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Final Wipe and Lot Selection

Discussion in 'Announcements' started by DarkStarr, Jan 28, 2016.

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  1. Drocis the Devious

    Drocis the Devious Avatar

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    You haven't seen anything yet. This is 5 months away from the land rush. Just imagine what the month before is going to be like. Just imagine all the people that don't get what they want, or make a mistake and get a lot they thought was going to be more important but turned out not to be. We haven't even reached a small level of "concern" yet. This is going to be the greatest forum wreck in the history of gaming.

    But I'm totally down with that, because in-game it's going to be amazing! It's going to be a world where the housing matters and communities form and honestly no one "knows" what will be a "best spot". There will be quite a few lucky people that had no intention of being involved in the market speculation and suddenly find that their home that they wanted to decorate is now worth 2k+ in real life.

    The devs said they got it taken care of. The only thing that makes any sense to me to worry about is do you have a plan for the land rush? And that's all on each individual.
     
  2. Bubonic

    Bubonic Avatar

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    Which promised reward do you think MD's compromise removes?
     
  3. Drocis the Devious

    Drocis the Devious Avatar

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    higher value pledges have lot selection priority over lower value pledges
     
  4. Astrobia

    Astrobia Avatar

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    I was referring to the lot selection priority proposal. Which in it's final form has been public for less then a month and is completely different to the original pitch... So I'm not sure what you are referring too. :p

    Yes but we haven't known all along that larger deeds would be able to claim smaller lots. If I still had my chat logs I could show you a quote where Darkstarr was against allowing rent free deeds to claim lots of different sizes. We had to talk the Devs into it on the premise that if I want to live in a lighthouse not a houseboat I should be able to live in a lighthouse and still be able pledge more support to the game without losing that ability. The idea it could be used to undercut lower brackets of the lot selection priority was never advocated or discussed, because at the time we didn't know there would be brackets. The description of the lot priority process has changed so many times since then, to compromise and still keep true to the sentiment behind their promises in some areas, others have been twisted away from their original intent.

    The best part of MD is keeps true to the intent behind promises even more so while braking even less of them. If someone in the baron tier wants a town lot, they are still in the first group that get to complete for them, even the benefactor barons are ahead of the founder lords.

    @Duchess Fionwyn I think you did misread the point a little. It's not just anyone who owns a POT who's a factor but anyone who either plans to or is content to live in a POT. 100 prospectors is not a drop in the bucket, that's more prospectors then there are currently NPC Town, City, Keep and Castle lots combined. Also yes it is only one primary deed in the first round of land rush. But lot selection/land rush doesn't end there and neither does prospecting. Knowing their preferred lot is secured in a POT prospectors can continue to prospect with their secondary deeds, addon deeds, and even just buying deeds with gold knowing that their preferred lot is secured and they never even had to complete for it.

    The idea of prospecting was always on the table and the devs have promoted it since the start. No one denies that. But don't forget they also promoted the idea that by upgrading your pledge for higher selection priority you'll be able to skip dealing with the prospectors. But the "current version" of the lot selection plan is disproportionately skewed against that. There is no doubt the devs love the idea behind the free market. But you can't tell me they are in favour of the idea backers sabotaging other backers shot at getting reasonable home in favour of selling (potentially to non backers) that home for gold to the highest bidder. The whole lot selection priority thing was an attempt to be that bid in the first place.

    Additionally twisting the intent behind the concession to allow larger deeds to claim smaller lots is borderline housing griefing when you think about it.
    Oh did you pledge to be at the top tier of that lot size selection and you missed out? Oh what a shame. I got it first. Guess you'll have to buy it from me, because we know you can't claim any of the available lots in my tier. :p
    Real estate prospecting is a real thing. But like most forms of prospecting we regulate it in real life do discourage prospect trolling.

    Keeping the promises matters, as does standing up for the intent behind the promises. When the devs "begrudgingly" accepted the idea of allowing big deeds to claim small lots so you could live in the house you wanted you can't tell me the intent was to allow prospectors to undercut lower lot selection priority groups. Heck you can't even say prospectors even pledged with that intent at the time as the whole concept of LSP Groups wasn't even announced until a year ago. Similarly you could not convince me the idea behind POTs was to allow prospectors to prospect without impunity. Absolutely the devs encourage support prospecting, but when in the same breath as Richard states his support for he also says but if you pledge a few dollars more you'll be able to go ahead of other people "in your pledge tier" and have a better chance of getting the lot you want without having to deal with the player real estate market...
    What better chance?

    Things have changed since then, @Lord Andernut really hit the nail on the head. There's really only one group that might have had members who came in late enough to make pledging decisions based on the current outlayed plan and that the Developer>Citizen groups competing for row lots.
    So much has changed leading up to now. The original proposal was if I pledged $502 I'd go before someone who pledged $501. That was too complicated for the devs to feasibly implement so what have with the current LSP Groups is a compromise that keeps the sentiment behind that promise. The extra clustering has changed the extent that some things are a factor and how they impact on other promises though.
    Founder gave way to Benefactors and issues sprung up around that leading to the creation of royal founders and they were promised higher lot selection priority. This is back in the day when a town deed could only claim a town lot, not a village lot. So in theory Royal founder Knights were promised they could take a crack at village lots before benefactor lords.
    Other early information was there will be enough lots in cities to accommodate all backers (plus that many again for non housing pledgers to land rush for). This has also proven unfeasable so PRT is the compromise. But not a good which further compounds the issue.
    You listen to the podcasts where the Devs talk about prospecting and you'll not they talk about player hot spots springing up. One or Two of the primary towns that become the goto place for player traffic and those been the high value real estate locations. Trying to guess where those hot spots will be is part of the challenge and gamble of prospecting. But that is a damn site different proposal to the idea that instead of competing with prospectors for the hotspots to you are competing for ALL of the NPC towns lots in their entirety.

    The current outlayed plan is the devs "attempt" to come up with a fair system that keeps to their promises. Given the majority think it is unfair, and so many promises are already compromises. It's reasonable to expect proposals for a better system with fairer compromises be considered (we can debate the meaning of fair to infinity but's obvious the overall sentiment at the moment is that their is a strong bias against those who pledged more with the intent of just claiming the spot they want to live in an NPC town without any further fuss).
    And Miracle Dragons proposal is just such a proposal. It doesn't address all the issues which really should be addressed. But it's still a good amendment that keeps the initial promises to prospectors and non-prospectors alike in a more balanced fashion and it's worth taking on board until more comprehensive proposals arise.
     
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  5. Bubonic

    Bubonic Avatar

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    could you (or anyone else) please link to where that is stated by the devs? (im not saying it isn't, I just can't find it anywhere)
     
  6. Lord Andernut

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    The kickstarter claim has these disclaimers in the rewards:

    Village - Village lots claimable by Town and City Deed Holders, higher value pledges have selection before lower valued pledges.
    Town - Town lots claimable by Town and City Deed Holders, higher value pledges have selection before lower valued pledges.
    City - City lots claimable by City Deed Holders, higher value pledges have selection before lower valued pledges.

    I feel like I have stated this over and over and over and it keeps getting ignored.

    Again, changing the claiming system so that higher valued pledges cannot claim until my lot selection window (which is at the top of it's class, over-pledged & Royal Founder) would benefit me. I'd love it if that were the system.

    But I have always known what the system was. It has always been clear to me that any sized deed can claim and lot size lower than it, it was always clear to me that Lords place before Knights, etc.

    I can understand why some people do not like the system - but I cannot see any way of changing the system while being fair to anyone who pledged higher.

    AND - the system that MD proposed changes the system for only the smallest subgroup of each pledge level (without honouring the promises that higher pledges go first - ie. Dukes and Barons would be claiming Town lots at the same time).

    Again the example - If Barons claim during the first RF Lord Marshal overpledged slot, they still go ahead of all Town Deed Holders that are Founders, Benefactors, and Royal Founders that didn't pledge their Lord/Lord Marshal up to $2300. So the proposed change by MD would put all the Baron+ in the same lot claim window as the 5 Lord Marshals @ $2300 (this has likely changed) but still ahead of the other 550 Town Lot Holders (not counting Knight Marshals).
     
  7. Lord Andernut

    Lord Andernut Avatar

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    This may be the 6th time I've posted this, but read the kickstarter

    https://www.kickstarter.com/project...of-the-avatar-forsaken-virtues-0/posts/446984

    And scroll down to see the rewards next to the tiers that have village/town/city lot deeds as rewards.

    I think it is important to note in the poll - I voted that I would like a different system. I did not vote to change the system and remove the pledge perks of those pledged higher than me. And that was a poll about the landrush, not about removing the ability to claim lower level lots.
     
  8. Daevin Aruth

    Daevin Aruth Avatar

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    /IC
    I'll interpret lot selection thusly... "In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth when you see Lords and Dukes and Barons and all the 'best spots' in the kingdom of Britannia fall, but (leftovers) yourselves being thrown out into the wilderness like scraps that fall absentmindedly from a royal table so perchance a gully dwarf can eat like a king for a day..."
    /OOC

    of course then there will only be 4 more Episodes to contend with :rolleyes:
     
  9. HoustonDragon

    HoustonDragon Avatar

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    As long as there's a moat to toss Lord British into :p
     
  10. Bubonic

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    Thanks. Buried on update 23, and no mention of this anywhere in the main page. Not exactly obvious.

    *shrug*

    ok then. We can't change that, cause they said it in kickstarter. We can't change the ability to take lower level plots, because that was said after kickstarter. We can't add more npc lots, because reasons.

    Money talks, the whims of the few outweigh the needs of the many in SotA.

    Sadface.
     
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  11. Astrobia

    Astrobia Avatar

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    I am well aware of that @Lord Andernut but during the KS we also told there was no intent for City deeds to be able to claim town deeds and so on. So that vague quote was written with the intent of implying higher pledges meant you would be given priority over other pledges of your lot size. It wasn't until some months later we managed to talk the devs into allowing claiming smaller lots to be part of the plan.
    If you want to watch the 24 hangout they held on the final day of the KS where they came up with the idea and we saw Dallas wonder off the write the post, you'll see the details that were pitched that were behind those sentences are not even close to the current proposal. :p
     
  12. HoustonDragon

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    I disagree that an anonymous forum poll fully encompasses the entirety of scope for everyone involved in the housing issue. I think the Devs (especially considering they have direct access to vast amounts of data that we do not) would be a little better suited to determine what system they intend to use, based on the actual pledges and players who paid for it. I'm not discounting your opinion; but that does not make it fact either.
     
  13. Astrobia

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    @HoustonDragon I can only work with the information I have. The decent here and elsewhere about the current plan leads me to believe at the very least it's not a minority opinion.
     
  14. Drocis the Devious

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    +1 for the use of gully dwarf :)
     
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  15. Drocis the Devious

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    How many lots would even be impacted by this? 100 out of like 10k? The needs of the few indeed. It's like "best spots" are some kind of endangered species that we must save from the high tier backers!

    What good would this even do? Make people feel better that a LOTM or a Duke wouldn't get to speculate AS MUCH?
     
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  16. Lord Andernut

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    I quoted it there simply because it was the easiest place to find it. The whims of the few here would be the people who want to change the reward structure - those who want to change the lot claiming MOST are those who paid more money to be at the top of their particular pledge level's tier. I don't think there's any Founder/Benefactor Citizens arguing to change it, it's Royal Founder Knights or Royal Founder Lord Marshals that stand to benefit the most from disallowing higher level pledges their earlier window. This isn't money talking, this is money getting you a higher place in the selection order, as we all know.

    So kickstarter both claimed they didn't want City deeds to claim Town deeds, but also has in writing, in kickstarter (which was 30 days, not months long) that City Deed Holders can claim Town Lots?

    Edit - I think I'll stopped getting sucked into this, I just thought the quotes from kickstarter would help that this has been the case for a long time and not a recent thing. I've known outside of kickstarter that higher deeds could claim lower lots and I've known that those higher deed holders can claim lots sooner. I would benefit from a changed system. Just as those who want to change it would benefit. But it's a minority who want to change the system because it's a minority who would benefit - namely, the pledgers with the largest over-pledge in their particular lot size subgroup that also happen to be Royal Founders.
     
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  17. Astrobia

    Astrobia Avatar

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    Were is that exact functionality in writing in the KS? I'd be very surprised it was as that was a lengthy debate after the fact.
     
  18. HoustonDragon

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    I agree there are certainly folks on both sides of the argument who are upset (and folks like myself who are annoyed enough to wash their hands of it until after the land rush itself). It all happens come July, and we will deal with the outcome at that point. If the Devs feel there is enough feedback to change it, that's up to them. I (and again, this is only my personal point) would much rather see them focus on the more long-term items that will affect the gameplay and enjoyment of the game.

    I am one of the people who feels we've spent WAY too much time on the housing issue overall in development; I'd like to see more meat for the rest of the carcass now.
     
  19. Lord Andernut

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    I really don't know how many more times I can force myself to type this but here:

    https://www.kickstarter.com/project...of-the-avatar-forsaken-virtues-0/posts/446984

    And ctrl-f for "**"

    ----------
    Edit - and for those who say it's buried in a kickstarter update (I've seen it a few times, but it was in the announcement for the end of founder pricing) and I'm sure I saw it elsewhere a few times:

    https://www.shroudoftheavatar.com/?p=24856
    I could be wrong, but I believe before they descriptions were updated on pledge rewards, the founder rewards that referenced water housing noted that any size pledge could claim the lots which to me implied - you probably will not get a chance to claim an Edelmann Cabana on water unless you were a Knight (or larger).
     
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2016
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  20. Astrobia

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    Of course you realise at Bubonics pledge level there's only 40 lots that matter, and less then 30 at the pledge levels above that. :p
    The lords of the manor groups alone can completely nuke his shot at a lot. So yes, Sadface indeed. That said I think that is bit paranoid... Before POTs became a factor anyway.

    I agree I do want to see a lot more of everything else too. But given how much has been invested in housing I want to see it ironed out and done right first since it's the basket all the eggs are in so to speak.

    @Lord Andernut I don't know how many more times I can type it either... :p
    But the quote you are linking to simply says they have lot selection priority, not that they can claim lots smaller then their current lot class. That was something that was decided post KS.
     
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