Does anyone else HATE the proposed card system??

I've got the impression that many people expect to see a deck of cards being shuffled and skills coming out of it randomly and things like that. All I know is what RG said, that he "took inspiration" from card games.

Personally, I think if we get opportunities to use our skills depending on what our opponent's skills are, that would be a lot better than the standard MMORPG hotkey bashing, and also better than Wizards' D20 system.

Now, if the chances to use any skill were completely random then I would agree: that would be horrible.
That would mean that - although unlikely - it would still be possible that you will never have the opportunity to use a particular skill. Just as likely as rolling a six-sided die 100 times and getting 100 times a one, you could end up using one single skill over and over again.
But I really doubt it'll be like that.

 

This sounds like the kind of idea that could turn out bad for a game that already has so much direction.
I remember RG saying how its strange that nobody has made a good sandbox rpg since the Ultima days
and how an old idea has yet to be built on. All the concepts with this game during kickstarter had the same
word triggering over and over in my head. Finally, finally , finally , finally, finally.
This might be one of those concepts that trys to be something new but works against the attempt of finally
doing something old, right.

Dunno, it could be awesome too, will have to wait and see what becomes of it.

 

Just a question, have you played a card based game very much?

Outside of that question, allow me to play devils advocate. You ask what happened to person vs. person, but isn't it more realistic to consider chance? Does the best boxer or MMA fighter ALWAYS win? No, because someone can land a haymaker and change the tide. The likelihood of that happening is low, and you can prepare for it. With card based decks you want to balance certain aspects. Some decks are heavily defensive and work on exhausting your opponent. Some are heavy offense and some are in between.

I understand you may not like it, but I love a proposed different system that blends MMOs with deck like combat. To me it makes it more exciting and doesn't mean a relatively new persons only choice is to run or die.

 

"Finally, finally, finally..." if everything else RG said made you think this, as it did me, isn't it worth giving him the benefit of the doubt, and try to remain optimistic that he won't disappoint us to that degree? Yes, it sounds 'scary'. Yes, I have reservations about it too. But I believe in RG and his vision and skill sufficiently that I am eagerly awaiting trying it out. Remember, what we get in December will be an alpha release. Major systems are often tweaked so much they are barely recognizable by the time of full release, or even scrapped entirely, during alpha testing. If it really just doesn't work for the majority of players, I am sure they will fix it. They won't release a fundamentally broken game. Until then, just try to remain positive and hold on to the "Finally, finally, finally..." feelings!

(This is not really personally aimed at you, Ome, I know you said you were going to wait and see, your words were just well said as a lead in to the point I wanted to make. )

 

How to make combat fun for me, personally:

- Mount and Blade combat
- Drawn and crafted magic

• Basic Magic - you draw simple symbols by hand to cast, some items do it on their own. Overuse will wear you out and under certain circumstances kill you.
• Advanced Magic- cannot be drawn without a medium, can be imbued into consumable cards assuming you have the proper materials to draw with in and outside of combat. Something limits the number of cards so they can't be abused.

Mount & Blade is kinda fast, and the hitboxes were just awful. War of the Roses improved upon M&Bs model, the directional stuff was more clear and easy to understand, and the combat wasn't too fast or twitchy. Chivalry was easier to understand, but it was faster. Regardless, its the most satisfying and immersive combat system I've played.

The way I'm thinking with the drawing thing, you press a key that puts you into a mode where you scribble a symbol with your finger onto your palm or onto what ever is in your non-dominant hand, then you click to aim and release to cast. Complex magic could be the same thing except you have to hold that key to bring it up, and need a small tool to draw the cards.

I would contribute more money to the game if that was a thing, I'd even buy an oculus rift just because of that.

 

Great point. I can sympathize with anybody who is frustraited at this point because it's kind of hard to grasp mentally what the end result of the game will be right now. After donating hard earned cash to back the game it can be hard to let go and wait for the results. I've been frustraited at a few things lately myself but taking a step back a bit and looking at the big picture helps a lot.

We want to be in the know on every portion and it does feel like we only get little scraps of info. It can also be tough donating your mental and creative juices to these threads and not even know if anybody is listening or caring. If anybody else feels that way I urge you to take a step back and look at the big picture. They really are interacting with us and are developing a great game.

The proposed combat skills and magic skills really look great. I share some info with a few friends who weren't ready to donate durring kickstarter and they are now looking like they might jump in soon. Alpha is starting soon and I think it will be great. So don't lose heart now even if things don't seem to be going all the way you want it at this point. The combat system has many possible ways to be tweaked before it goes live anyway. Who knows maybe they could add something to help the skill system that makes the skills show up more predictably based on how you've combined them in the past? This is all still early on in development, and really they are comming up with great ideas.

 

To me, the proposed system is a pretty interesting way to approach these games. Instead of a Rock/Paper/Scissors approach, whack-a-button rotations or completely gear based combat, this is giving us another way to bring strategy into the game. You get to build a set of skills over time and use them in combat, with some random elements that are a little more even than just missing on a spell or failing to hit with a sword. The person who has been playing longer still has an advantage because he should have a better selection of skills and more experience using them, but there is a chance luck won't be on his side. Seems like a very good approach to me, I am eager to see it.

 

Yes i have played card based games and most great games have gone to card base example , D&D, Super heros, and for me this is my opinion, id rather have a spread sheet with my skills, than cards that cost 100 dollars or more cause thier so powerful, and once again this is my own opinion, they bore the hell out of me id rather just roll dice and take chances thaat way, if i wanted to play cards id go play gin rummy, poker, uno, spades, magic the gathering with people, that like that type of stuff, now if you wanted to put card games in the game at a casino type place or some game master at a tavern then thats fine, but honestly if i have been playing awhile and i had nice armor and weapons and your toon just started playing and you have cloth armor and no magic and a stick to fight with and no experience, then really you should go kill some more chickens or wolves, make armor and weapons, get yourself up to where my standings are before you pick a fight i dont think that what ive worked for so hard in game armor weapons etc.. should be tossed asaide based on a the way the cards are drawn! its not fair to the people that worked to get to where they are in game. Thats my opinion of "I absolutly hate card based games" if i liked those type games i would just go hang out with my local "magic the gathering" group instead of playing this video game.

 

I see your point: however I think your fear of what the combat system will be like is in vain... LB has been talking about not being able to use every single skill you've prepared at any given moment you'd like to, so there might be a chance involved in the fight, but it doesn't mean you lose the fight even if the opportunities to use some skills, say, counter attack or any other specific ability...

I don't get it why it instantly means that you'll be playing a frigging card game on the screen and it'll be completely a game of dice.

They've said they don't want to have lots of crap running on the UI, so hardly there will be a card deck shuffling in front of you in the combat!

There's just been talk of the basic idea that you choose your skills / abilities, and chances are that all of the them are not available all the time during combat, but you might be still use them at some point in every fight, it just mean you need to be aware of the opportunities in the fight, and it's not a game of skill spamming and 1+1 math. I think it'll turn out to be fine, this thread makes me feel like some people think the guys at Portalarium are completely incompetent... which they are not.

 

Because the devs initially described it like "Dominion" the card game.

The premise is you pick a subest of your skills that you can use durring combat. Any skills not in that mix will not be available to you (at this time). Then, of the skills you picked, they will be randomly placed in your skill bar occasionally, temporarially and not always there either.

The closest example is deck building games. Where you choose your deck ahead of time, and then draw them randomly and play them as they come up. This isn't to say there is no skill to doing this, but it isn't the feel a lot of us look for in a CRPG... and it won't be fun when the skill we need is unavailable for reasons beyond our control.

 

There is a lot to respond to in this post.

1. The argument about your skills being tossed aside by the way cards are dealt is not a fair comparison. For starters you will have more developed skills and more practice with the interface. And your gear will also be an advantage. The other individual would be pretty foolish to pick a fight with you, as his likelihood of dying is high. But, as in reality, your victory is never a sure thing.

2. You say if you wanted to do card based options you would play things like Uno or Magic "instead of playing this game." This game is still in development, but they made it clear they don't want the cookie cutter, push a button rotation combat scenario. There are several games like that already. So you don't like the proposed description, I do like it, is either opinion better than the other? I dont think so and the direction may change but for right now ...this game is trending to a different type of combat.

 

I understand that, later on in my post i said they will have to disect this a little more and most of it is specualtion, none the less i will still play the game and try it out but if it does go to card system i just wont play PVP, I like the fact that we will have an option of either or.

 

Honestly if i thought they were incompotent, i would never have invested in a game i hadnt even seen yet. I do have faith and i hope all the devs will look over what everyones opinions are eventually they will figure out what works best.

 

I know what you mean. The idea excites me at the same time. Exspecially if it promoted more diversity between player abilitys. One thing tiresome
to me about many mmos is the lack of diversity between player skills. For instance every paladin of same level has the same abilitys. I think the more
diversity between player abilitys you can get in a game the more fun and unique your role is in the realm and the more unpredictable and discoverable
realitys in the game become. But I would imagine it becomes harder to balance and takes alot more work.
Still its something I hope is achieved some day at great lengths. Where you could fight in a way and have skills in a way that your unique style of
play could be foreign to a group you join. Not just, oh theres the guy with the bla bla bla build. And perhaps there could even be abilitys that only 1 player
would ever discover and others more common. But I don't think devs would wanna make a game where only 1 player would reap the rewards of a feature.
Still I think the day a game has that level of diversity will be the best game ever, even if everything isn't balanced. A game that would even allow for you
to form in a unique way that isnt commonly known as beneficial but becomes beneficial in unforseen ways. It would all take alot more work but its what I hope to see achieved some day. Even if it was achieved on a minor
scale it would be ahead of most cookie cutter games these days.

I was thinking about the card idea the other day. And rectangle rune type rocks with painted rock texture in the picture area popped in my head.

 

I don´t think they mean to implement the idea as a whole, but rather take inspiration from it, but that´s just my assumption. It´s not much different from the idea of having crits proc different abilities like in WOW for example, it´s a game of chance as well in some parts.

 

@monxter - Sorry. What I described is EXACTLY the plan on the table as it stands today. Friend dying? Doesn't matter that you know heal, you didn't plan on using it when you set out, so now it's not in any of your rotations. But even if you did, there's only a chance of it being there now anyway.

That's not anything like having an opportunity to take advantage of an opening, that's tying a players hands behind their back and saying "Isn't this kind of strategy fun?" More often than not it's going to be frustrating, not fun.

 

ok upon more thought on the card/deck system as long as i can right click my enemy to death, and then use a card lets say flamestrike is the card, my sword bursts into flame and does more damage then i think i can understand the card and or deck system a little better! time will tell.............

 

Well, while I understand Starr's desire for an element of randomness to combat to make it seem more realistic (and yes, I should note that I have played a lot of Magic: The Gathering in the past), I should point out that this can lead to some unrealistic situations.

Say I am locked in hand-to-hand combat with a powerful foe. I've switched from my offensive spell list to my defensive spell list. I've stacked this list with fifteen extra healing spells along with five other support-type spells. (We're not sure how large the list size will be yet.) Suddenly, I am critically injured by my foe's non-magical sword. I know I won't be able to survive another blow and desperately hope that one of my extra healing spells pops up within the next few seconds. I am fairly confident that this will happen (75% chance!). Sorry, tough luck, one of my other non-healing support spells (increase magic defense) pops up instead and I die from the next blow If this was actually happening and I knew I was near death, I wouldn't be casting increase magic defense instead of a healing spell. According to Starr's argument, I died because, during combat, I panicked and cast the wrong spell by mistake! Silly me Of course, one could argue that I could have a separate spell list consisting solely of extra healing spells (They haven't said yet if there will be a maximum number of lists you can have.), but switching back and forth between three or four spell lists (not to mention additional lists for physical combat maneuvers!) in the heat of battle becomes rather unwieldy. If you don't have quick reflexes, you'll probably be dead before you can even react to your foe's attack...This may not be much of a problem for younger players accustomed to twitch combat, but most of us former Ultima players aren't that young anymore...

While the proposed combat system is certainly innovative, I am glad to hear that Starr said they would consider returning to a more traditional combat system if this doesn't work out well in Alpha

 

The funny and quite sad thing about this is that he just proved that the UI is going to be MORE intrusive because of this. The whole reason and advantage of memorising the spells in your quick use bar is that it means you don't have to look at it. Now with this you are never going to know what spell\skill is attached to your button and so are going to have to spend your time looking at your quick use bar to the detrement of looking at the fight OR they are going to have to make that UI massivily intrusive as has been suggested, puting it around the monster your fighting

Further more there is alot of talk about how this is going to effect PvP, where is the talk on how this will effect single player as a viable playstyle?

All this talk about work arounds to stack the deck seem like a solution looking for a problem which symply doesn't need to be there. The randomness\chaos he is looking for would be better with critical failure\hit because these bring chance into the game without destroying the UI.

I remember watching chris and RG playing the demo and the thing they specifically pointed out is look how unobtrusive our UI is, we want you to be looking at the world, not game mechanics and then they go and ensure that for combat that is ALL your going to be looking at. Hell this is why they got rid of health bars, so you had to watch the combat and then you make it so you can't. Diablo 3's UI is FAR less intrusive than this is going to be, when your playing you tunnel vision in and don't even see the UI unless you want to, this??? how is this going to fade into the background?????