Combat, Magic, Skills - No UI, No 'Deck' Proposal

Because some spells, even if you know the words, it still requires understanding the energies involved, the intonation, etc? Because learning a language in High School is no substitute for actually going to the country and having to speak it conversationally? Because just knowing English doesn't prepare you for being a lawyer? Some spells may require a more focused inflection and need to you to actually know them (unlock them in your tree) before you cast them.

Ultima V had you pre mix the spells using words that you strung together with the reagents, but still needed you to have the right level to open up that circle of magic for you to cast from. I see this as no different, it just happens at the time of casting. If you still want players to have to plan ahead deck style, this would be a fantastic way to do that while harkening back to the old Ultimas.

Although, it could be fun to let people try and cast spells beyond their power with a roll against how many points they've put in that tree, and watch it blow up on them if they fail. You want chaos in your combat? That's chaos in your combat.

 

I neglected to mention in my initial post that I'd like to see a confirmation when you enter your 3-sec wait for each attack command. The weapon attack would take a pose, obviously, but magic would do a second of glowing in the color of the school of the spell attack. I'd like to see that onscreen, and that lets other Players know you're doing something, and not just standing there.

Schattenwandrer - Thank you

• Different attack mechanics because numbered 'positions' is valid - or stances, etc - for weapons
• Giving 3-letter Mantras for magic mathematically gives -- if you always include a vowel -- over 5000 Mantras to choose from
  • A possible memory help for this is the spellbook [as used in Ultimas past and other lore] to refer to, listing the spells you've learned for each 'Spell Circle'.
  • Letters/Mantras for magic only fits better with the lore, and past lore, of Ultima adventures
• Drawing back on your mouse gives you more of a feeling of actually drawing back on your bow, and holding to aim

Vyrinor - Thank you

• Yes, you can click your target with mouse or 'Tab' to target, or whatever device [is programmed]

Browncoat Jayson - Thank you

• Yes, you can hit 1 key or could have it macroed. Let combat be the Player using what they've trained.
  • There is a 3-second delay in any case before you can make a second attack, whether it is magic or non-magic.
    • You can cancel out of the attack you commanded by hitting the spacebar, or whatever key is programmed to be your enter/exit combat key.
• Yes!

Valos - Thank you

• True point about macroing Mantras cancelling out typo fizzles - valid, and I move that back to the percentage fails built into SotA by the official Dev Team, forget typo idea
• The 3-second delay [just my initial proposal] would be for skill/spell, to keep the fastest typer from being the 'winner'/ having the advantage [see 'cancel' option above]
  • The delay for complicated attacks is already there in my initial proposal, i.e. "You can combine or stack magic 'schools', or be interrupted"
    • Example for a complicated attack by Player having a higher Focus: 'Syl' [3 sec wait], '1'-with shield equipped [3 sec wait], 'Pyr' [3 sec wait], '4'-with sword equipped in other hand [3 sec wait], hit Spacebar to execute attack - Healing myself and bashing the enemy with my shield attack, I stab the enemy with a twisting, fiery sword!
    • Other keystrokes can certainly be integrated into the attack idea, for example, holding down Ctrl+'Rok' could = delayed, or rapid implementation
    • Stacking example: 'Rok' [3 sec wait], + 'Rok' [3 sec wait], + 'Rok' [3 sec wait] = Massive Chain Lightning attack

Seir - Thank you

• You're sitting at a keyboard. Dyslexia has been brought up for the Conversation typing. My R/L husband has dyslexia, so I get that. However, you will be typing, and how do you normally play a game from a keyboard, or combat inside a game? This is not more difficult than looking around at your combat UI all over the screen and finding the correct one to click, or hotkeying and pressing the hotkeys. You can still macro, yet everyone has the 3-second delay in my proposal.

Freeman - Thank you

• Yes - I spoke in a suggestion in Starr's Mega Post that it would be a neat idea to me if some attacks didn't execute against some enemies because they were useless against that enemy. Agreed.
• Moving: In my proposal -- especially if there is no-jumping ( ) is to use the Spacebar to enter/exit/escape combat attack. Out of combat, WASD [or ESDF] works. So, 'Spacebar', do attack, 'Spacebar' to execute that attack, move, 'Spacebar' to enter combat again, and so forth.
• Stances/fighting styles/defense, all could be enhanced by other keys + the initial keystrokes I've proposed, and don't forget the magic+weapon attacks, and 'innate' abilities [in DarkStarr's post]
• Thanks for nailing a lot of my ideas in your own replies to others! hehe
  • No re-work mess for Dev Team - less work!
  • Cycle - yes! Other keys in combo with proposed keystrokes - yes!
  • Not so much just 'plan ahead what you're up against and come appropriately equipped'. I mean, I know there will be times you're going toward a battle you know about, attacking an enemy you know about. However, it's also the freedom to use your head and training to attack what comes at you unexpectedly, using your brain to switch out the weapons and/or spells you know depending on what the enemy in front of you is doing now -- which I hope is not so predictable that you can plan it all out ahead, google your strategy, and bore me to death.
  • [sort of @Mishri and @Freeman - and Thank you also to Mishri for input] This is no slower than anything you're doing now at your keyboard for combat. Nor does this proposal alter the proposed Skill Trees or Levels or Schools for what DarkStarr has already stated.
  • Spells intonations - yes! In fantasy tales with magic, speaking with the proper training/experience/confidence/intonation/power - makes all the difference. Very well explained in your example of learning a foreign language and then actually speaking it to a native of that language.
  • Mastery of spells/skills - yes! Trying to perform a skill/attack/spell that you just learned, but haven't 'mastered' should 'fizzle' or fail more than using a well-honed skill/spell/attack. This was in previous Ultimas, and other lore.

@Mishri - Thank you

• Ultimas spoke their spells, and had Spell Circles and Character Advancement, not called 'levels' in those days, but I think you know all of that. This proposal I'm presenting hinders none of the type(s) of that the official Dev Team has stated. This is only about combat UI and attack, according to what you've trained, learned within what the official Dev Team and DarkStarr's Mega Post outlines. I have no desire to propose alternate ideas on the other ideas they've presented. I like all of those. I also like the 'deck' proposal for Chaos attacks, frankly. My Proposal in this Thread is solely for Combat, and to offer a positive alternative to the Combat [mainly for non-Chaos combat] mechanisms currently offered to us during this developmental pre-Alpha stage.

Thank you again, all of you. I'd rather not just wait around until March to 'try out' the currently offered combat to 'see' if I like it. I do realize this is only a Proposal by a small person in the big gaming world, and in a gaming world of Ultimas -- which I personally love. Yet we have this window of opportunity to offer our ideas, and so I offer this Proposal.

Please, if you have further ideas to help this along, add them! Thank you in advance. I too want an innovative combat system, one that will draw people in, and not one that will put Players off from the adventure. Working together, as the official Dev Team offers to the Community, is a great opportunity! I appreciate the invitation, and the graciousness with which it has been offered. Thank you to Richard Garriott, to the entire Dev Team, and to my new online community friends.

 

@ Adiun Tesserande - Thank you

<Adiun_Tesserande> An interesting one from what I've seen, but I do see how people would macro it.
<Fireangel> I don't mind macro, actually.
<Fireangel> They are delayed anyway.
<Fireangel> In my proposal, there is a built in delay for all.
<Adiun_Tesserande> I do like your idea, though. But allow me to propose one of my own? I would suggest a random deck of /boosts/ to your attacks. All your attacks work, but the random deck boosts the attacks. It still makes you want to 'stack your deck' properly, but doesn't mean you have to look at your UI, or that you /can't/ do things if you don't have the rig
<Adiun_Tesserande> ht cards.
<Fireangel> Why?
<Fireangel> I'm not arguing, just asking.
<Adiun_Tesserande> Why what?
<Fireangel> Why do that idea you just proposed?
<Fireangel> What's the reason?
<Adiun_Tesserande> Because I do like the idea of a card system. It is innovative, and does bring something to the table that the gaming world hasn't seen. But right now, it's counterintuitive, and runs counter to the very idea they say they're working towards. By making it a boost deck rather than a source deck, I think it solves everything.
<Fireangel> So, you cast your skill/spell, and/or stack or combine it, and *also* let your deck draw for you?
<Adiun_Tesserande> You have, say, four to eight standard attacks/defenses/heals, and a bunch of skills that can add on to those basic attacks/defenses/heals. Those skills make up your deck. Eight cards are drawn when combat begins, and when you use a basic attack, if you have a boost tied to it, it is used as well, and then a new card is drawn to replace that one.
<Adiun_Tesserande> (The computer is programmed to prevent you from having multiple different boosts for the same skill in your hand at the same time.)
<Fireangel> So, yes to my question, I think.
<Fireangel> The card draw is not shown on UI either, but may also give a virtual confirmation, as in temporarily showing the boost in some visual around, over or through the Player's character, perhaps?
<Fireangel> The 'boost' as you say.
<Adiun_Tesserande> Exactly. It shows an animation of you performing the 'boost'.
<Fireangel> I wouldn't mind that at all.
<Fireangel> Would you mind being quoted, or would you prefer being left out entirely?
<Adiun_Tesserande> You choose the three(? Eight? Six?) basic skills you want on your bar, and your deck is full of your boosts. And you don't need to look at your UI at all, unless you want to.
<Adiun_Tesserande> I wouldn't mind being quoted at all. I'd really like to contribute this.
<Fireangel> Oh, you're still wanting a bar.
<Fireangel> I'm not wanting a bar at all.
<Adiun_Tesserande> You don't necessarily even need one.
<Fireangel> Okay, good.
<Adiun_Tesserande> It could just as easily merge with the system you described as with a traditional 'bar' system.

 

Ah...Ok...maybe I misread your first post a little (and maybe you my post).

I think I misunderstood your point about stances...but why are you suggesting just stances for melee?
As an archer you could stand or crouch, you could fire straightforward or in a curve, your feet’s could have different positions…even as a mage you could have different stances…both hand on weapon and weapon not on the ground…weapon standing on the ground and both hands on the top of the weapon…weapon just in one hand and arms wide open…in the end I would suggest three stances for melee, archery and magic…one offensive, one balanced and one defensive stance.

With the mantras I may not made it clear…If you implement a mantra-mechanic for mages than (in my opinion) there must be the same for melee/archery. If there would be just mantras for magic user there would be some kind of (dis)advantage for the one or the other kind of attack. Just assume the idea to melee/archery…typing “toa” you are doing “Whirling Blades” in melee, typing “jiu” you are doing “Multi Shot” in archery…or how do you suggest using special moves in melee/archery? (apart of your suggested left/middle/right mouse button for archery but 6 possible special moves)

To combine special moves you just type the mantras together, hit enter (to say your mantra ingame) and click on your target…like “pyrjiu” to do a "Multi Shot" with flame arrows or “rokpyrtoa” to do a “Whirling Blades” with additional fire and electric damage.

Summarized: If you just move your mouse on an enemy and click you just do a standard attack…if you want to use a special attack/magic you must type a mantra, move your mouse on an enemy and click…if you want to change your stance for a change in advantages/disadvantages you use the numbers 1, 2, 3 (or F1, F2, F3).

 

Fireangel & Adiun: I really love the idea of a hybrid system developed by the both of you. Fireangel - Your proposed system removes a lot of the flaws associated with the current system and makes a lot of sense Adiun - Incorporating the deck for boosts only is an excellent way to add a small element of randomness to combat. This is good because it prevents combat from becoming too predictable and boring. (Perhaps the biggest flaw with the current system is that there is too much randomness associated with combat -i.e., relying too much on luck of the draw instead of skill.) I hope the developers strongly consider this hybrid system as an alternative if the current one does not work out well in Alpha

 

I think you missed the conclusion of my concern; if the way that we are meant to initiate skills involves typing, maybe allow the use of voice command for keyword skills. Many people these days have headphones with a mic attached, if we could make use of the mic to issue verbal keyword commands (instead of having to type them out) it might prove interesting.

Of course, we run into the issue of me being in voice chat with others at the same time, so having to listen to everyone yell skill commands would be tough but I would love to be able to remove one additional interface interaction and replace it with voice command.

Now, I also like Adiun's suggestion about pushing the deck structure from base skills to skill bonuses or combo bonuses. I think that idea really needs to be fleshed out and re-presented to dev designer folks.

 

Concerning the @Adiun_Tesserande suggestion.

To me the suggestion would be just as easily implimented with critical hits and misses. Occasionally you just get an incredible shot, or an incredible failure. No interface or anything else is needed for that.

The idea I was trying to work into my own system (suggested to me by @By-Tor) was one of a fate deck/play/something. Where you can tuen in to the chaos and let it draw for you. You'd stack your deck with bonuses that you'd learned about, but that's the danger, in learning when something is going your way, you also see the times it's not. So the deck just draws randomly for these bonuses, slowly over time. What ever bonus is on the card when it's drawn is one you enjoy for a random amount of time until the next one appears.

Unless the card comes up reversed. And then it's a penalty, not a bonus. Your journey along the virutes would determine how likely any card would be to come up reversed.

Again, here's an opportunity for an anti-virtue play style, where some cards are supposed to affect others negatively, and if they come up, they affect you instead, but this would be less likely to be reversed if you were playing the evil path.

Just thought of this, but the weight could be decided by who your opponent is. So if you're chaotic fighting chaos opponents, it might be 50/50, while fighting a virtuous oppoent it might be 10%. And vice versa. A virtue deck of fate would be more potent against chaotics, than agaisnt other virtuous opponents.

No real interface is needed. Simply hit a key to start letting fate take it's course, and hit it again to stop after the current card wears off.

 

In my "craft your spells" system, one of the aspects that players can add to their spell/skill is a certain amount of chaos, to provide random bonuses or unusual effects. Good idea, Freeman.

 

@ Schattenwandrer - Thank you. The Proposal I present is just that; an initial proposal. As I stated, a tweak could be to also press other buttons in addition to the inital number or letter or Mantra. If Players would rather type Mantras for all weapons, even outside of Magic, that does make sense. There are, as I said, over 5000 combinations of 3-letter Mantras, if you include a vowel in every Mantra [around 17,000 if you do not include a vowel, fyi]. Mantras being used for magic and non-magic attacks, I say again, does make sense -- both for an idea, and for the Ultima Lore. Crouching could be done anytime by a crouching movement mechanic [as in all games], as could a jump, or a roll, if the official Dev Team is putting that in the game. Personally, I don't want 6-letter Mantras introduced, as that takes away the 3-sec delay idea proposed for each attack action.
Lord Ao Soliwilos - Thank you. See last 6-letter Mantra answer above. I restate that this Proposal should take no longer than any other combat idea to execute, in actual time, of a Player sitting at their keyboard. [also @ PrimeRib with that last 'time' comment - Thank you. No tedious-ness.
@ Freeman and vjek - Thank you. You're certainly not going to get an argument from me for adding karma, kismet, consequences into the mix. I hesitate to hope for even more [complications] to be added to the Proposal I'm presenting as far as the official Dev Team goes, but your idea makes me happy.
@ Seir - Thank you. Your suggestion is really at the official Dev Team and not me, and really, that's all I ment to imply without saying it that bluntly. If they have voice recognition, there you go. If not, no.
@ Lord Ravar Thank you. I didn't mean to skip you in my first response, and kind of answered your points in there somewhere.

Thanks to all. I hope this gets a consideration. We'll see. Everyone is appreciated! Any new ideas?

 

Well I would see there a difference between crouching as an act of movement and crouching as a stance.
As an archer you are in ranged combat a smaller target (possibly even hide yourself in allied lines) without losing much attack power if you are in a crouching stance...but you are maybe just able to fire in a curve.
Crouching in melee is something totally different…your front is now maybe well protected as the shield is hiding your whole body but in melee combat you are now attackable from above and that is quite suicidal and the allies behind you are now vulerable. Also you are much weaker during crouching with your own melee attacks…in my opinion no one will seek a melee-fight while he is crouching. (Except we get horses and lances to build up a lance wall…or the possibility to build a shield wall with allies in the second line )

But in the end all I wanted to say is that not only melee should use stances.

 

I have a cautionary thought on this: time consumption. Now, it may be ENTIRELY the point that casting magick takes your hands off the movement and aiming controls, but it seems to me that this system would pretty much negate anyone casting on the fly. All would be wizzards would have to stop everything in order to start slinging syllables together. For me, this would be a slight letdown, as I like playing hybrid caster/fighter in my builds. Having no ability to cast while IN combat, waving a sword around, becauses I would inherantly lose the ability to dance about defending myself in the middle of the melee would be sub-par.

 

@MalakBrightpalm - Thank you. No. It isn't slower. No. This doesn't keep you from movement- at all. I play the 'tank Mage' myself, mostly halberd or sword, 'dabbling' in magic. This shouldn't be confusing, as it's very simple.
You press a button, and your sword swings. You want to move, hit Spacebar, move. Done moving? Want to attack? Press Spacebar, and you're back in combat. Press a button for plain attack, or use a Mantra + a button for a different attack, or use more than one button for yet a different attack. Want to move again? Press Spacebar and move. This is different, but not slower, nor confining. You're in control.

 

Ok, by way of clarification of my post, the last few games I've played that were vaguely comparable to what SOTA is doing, I would be holding down a button on my mouse that froze my frame of reference to the mouse, and holding down another button or two with my cramped fingers that caused me to be strafing while running forward (or back), AND hitting several buttons in sequence that swung my sword, cast spells, and activated defenses all at the same time. In the 'best' of these, where the controls were sufficiently complex and allowed keybinding and macroing, I had shift/alt macros that changed what I did, and I had practiced enough that friends who were sitting there watching me couldn't tell when I switched my grip on the keyboard to access a rarely used attack or spell, I was jumping and strafing and aiming and dodging and tracking an opponent and NAILED that fleeing guy with a ranged finisher, then suddenly had a shield up and was throwing a defensive spell at an ally and then tossing an aoe into that group...

Having to do things like hit spacebar to toggle in and out of movement commands WILL make the character pause for spells and weapon swings. Not necessarily a LOT, but a seasoned PvP player can tell you that 0.3 seconds IS a palpable and significant delay.

 

Every Player will have the same delays, the same advantages and disadvantages in combat and movement.

 

The combat sigil really excites me. I like the way they have designed the four offensive trees and four defensive trees at this point. There are so many possibilities to create a good and fun character. There isn't one particular type of combat that trumps all the rest. It looks like a cool system.

 

As for magic, I can't tell for sure, was it some system or homerules. Casting was based on runes: combine runes — have a spell casted, much like Mantra system. The thing was:
1) you have to master each rune, because every time you use it, you (GM does) doing a skill check.
2) You have a bag full of runes
3) In the beging you pull five runes blindly
4) You can combine up to three of them into a spell
5) Used runes returns to bag, then they are shuffled and you blindly pick new ones to have five again

That way, while having access to every spell he knew, character had to figure out which spell he should use in current conditions (both combat conditions and runes available)

 

I would like to see this kind of system in an isometric POV. The melee combat would be especially fun, because it reminds me of Revenant.