Combat, Magic, Skills - No UI, No 'Deck' Proposal

**Edit Nov. 07, 2013 - I asked Miv to move this to General Forums today. Thank you, Miv!

Beginning Wheel of 'Power':

The Magic 'Sigil', and the Combat 'Sigil':
[DarkStarr's Mega Post on Combat]

Keeping all of these original ideas in mind, I would like to submit another combat skill proposal. I hope this does not come across as arrogant, because really that's not my intent. Tweak these ideas with me please, and don't forget the former ideas when considering this new proposal. Thank you in advance.

What goal is Richard Garriott and the official Dev Team trying to reach with combat? Less UI onscreen, and an innovative combat system, correct? This is a basic proposal I'm putting forward: get rid of the UI. Use the keyboard.

Magic User: The letters on the keyboard are for you. Type a three letter Mantra to use your spell [If 3 letters is too much, it could be just one letter, but 3 seems better, because a typo could cause a 'fizzled' spell, and fits in more with the old 'spirit' of the Ultimas]. Mantra is not the legal property of any entity. Mantra belongs in RG's lore. If the old 3-letter words are not legally free for use, skip those. [*NOTE: To 'Send' your spell, Player presses 'spacebar' -- or whatever designated key -- this executes the spell. To talk any time during combat, hit 'Enter' first, type your words, like "Hit the big one first!" to your friend, and hit 'Enter' again to 'send' your words, and you're back in combat until the battle is won or lost or you're out of range.]

• Example: 'Syl' is Heal, 'Rok' is Lightning, 'Pyr' is Fire - you type it, you cast it [if you know it]
  • 'Lightning Shield' is Syl/Rok combo - a 'beneficial' magic plus the lightning
    • Timers on cast [to prevent the fastest typer from winning] [Devs determine the timer length] [3 seconds?]: Cast Syl, wait, Cast Rok
      • or cast Syl twice instead for stronger heal; 3 times for mass heal
      • You can combine or stack magic 'schools', or be interrupted
        • Focus skill prevents interruptions

Melee User: The numbers on the keyboard are for you.

• Example: Fencing, Position One [and follow through] [RG knows these better than I]:
• 
• Example: Holding a 2H-sword, Position One
• 
• Example: Dual-wield, Position One - and follow-through begins...etc

Archery User: The mouse is for you. Click with left button on combat, armed with bow or crossbow gives you one archery attack. Click with right button for a different shot. Click with middle button for a different shot. Click and hold, pulling back, for an 'Aimed' Shot, for example, as in DarkStarr's Skill Tree.

ADDING MAGIC TO WEAPON ATTACKS: Cast 'Rok' Mantra, wait for timer, and attack with weapon for electric magic addition to weapon attack [if you're trained in both to that skill level]

Weapons and Unarmed combat not shown or mentioned specifically would work the same. 1 = position one for that weapon or unarmed combat, 2, 3, and so forth.

This may accomplish the expected goals while still reinforcing the themes and the mythos of Richard Garriott's 'New Britannia'.

 

Hmm…nice idea but why three different attack-mechanics (magic/melee/archery)?
Just use for everything the words (and mouse for aiming). This way no system is "easier".

Magic
Just type ‘rok’ and an animation of maybe 3 seconds is starting (moving arms, growing electric energy,…).
First possibility: Without any interaction you cast a weak area attack in front of your character by clicking with your mouse during this animation on an enemy you cast a stronger spell just on this enemy.
Second possibility: Without any interaction your spell hit just a random target in front of you. Only if you click during animation at a target you attack just this one. (I would prefer this way as it would be the same with melee/archery)

Melee
Typing “toa” you character is lifting his sword to his right side (again 3 seconds). Without any interaction you are doing a sword stroke at a random enemy in front of you. With a mouse click during the animation you are doing a sword stroke at the enemy you clicked at.

Archery
Typing “cev” an animation start where your character is bending his bow (again 3 seconds). Without any interaction you shoot an arrow at a random enemy in front of you. With a mouse click during the animation you are shooting your arrow at a specific target.

Combining attack would be the same. You type ‘rokcev’ and now you are shooting a flame arrow at a random target (maybe in 6 seconds).
I wouldn’t use spacebar/enter to divide your inputs. I would say if you put your weapon away you just can’t cast/attack someone and if you are running in town with drawn weapons and bubble your attacks…well than it’s your fault.

 

My first reaction is a positive one, I think I may like this proposal, Fireangel. I have to give it some more thought, and play it out in my mind a few times.

 

Maybe I'm not seeing it so please point it out to me! The mouse is used for targeting for all three still, correct? If that's the case the magic words could get awkward...

 

The only issue I see with this is that it promotes macroing. If you have to type a spell/skill/ability, then to reduce errors and cast it in a split second, players will just grab a programmable keyboard/mouse and put all of their combos into those. So you've moved from an on-screen key to a off-screen key. You might as well have simply assigned each ability a single keystroke, and let people launch them at will.

That said, I do like the concept that "mantras" make up a portion of each ability. Magic would just be a mantra + reagents, while combat would be a mantra + focus (weapon). If the mantras are, directly or indirectly, influenced by the Virtues and/or Antivirtues, you could create a wide range of abilities using the same skills, and have them meaningful for each player.

I do like the concept of learning and empowering your abilities with mantras, but I don't think this is a replacement for the UI. Sorry.

 

Im all in for "no UI".
Magic:
I like the idea of typing power words (and specially the fizzle part) but I see that it would fall pretty quickly to macro program with out fails.

Mayby just let us use macros but put delay of like 1 sek per word used. Then more complex spells would require more time.

Combat:
'Witchery' like combat stances like defence, normal, aggressive as one switch and second on fast, medium, slow. Paired with weapon things like reach. You could change stance as you wish, taking like .5seks or so.

So you could be in Fast Agressive - Like wielding daggers lightning fast stabbing but light damage, specially on heavy protection plates.
or Slow Defence - meaning you focus on blocking & keeping you self intact and occosionally hit, but hard.

Im not meaning we should go full FPS/Twitch, this could be 'automated' by autoattacks, but you could control the stances and have some form of activity like dodges or specials or something. (like trying to back out, to keep your reach advantage with spear) Even this could be in the system like

Defencive, fast, reach - meaning you would concentrate on def with quick stabs while maintaining reach/distance to your opponent. skills would tetermine can your character keep the distance or not - it would change when the combat continues, having you in advantage and then possibly disadvantage when opponent manages to get to close range - where you could drop spear, change to small sword and change your pose to agressive-fast-close. Opponent could also change tactics going defencive-slow-reach and try to pull out of your aggressive-fast mayhem.

Further skills could add beter offencive/def when fighting multiple opponents etc.

 

Cool idea and maybe these thoughts can be somehow integrated into the design...but...as was stated, moving hands from mouse to keyboard, to movement keys, to attack word typing will make things very difficult. Someone was mentioning being dyslexic, this would add to that issue.

I would love the ability to initiate spells with voice commands (take away the keyboard component); not sure how far this will go but I like the fresh, new and positive approach!

 

The magic system reminds me of Magicka, which is something I often think of when I think about how people say that the old system will lead to people just casting three spells over and over again. In magicka some spells just don't work. Right about the time you get used to using your lighting-fire-beam, some enemies appear that have shields and you have to find a different spell that works.

And that's part of the secret to a good game. Make the game play cause you to change it up, don't cahnge it up for you and call it game play.

My one "but" is this... If I'm moving using ESDF (screw you WASD!), do I have to stop moving to cast my spell, use my fighting technique? Are we going to have the movement keys off limits for combat skills, or is their going to be an 'activation' key that lets it know you're ready to start executing a technique?

The combat reminds me a bit of 'the Witcher' the first one. Where you have stances and power moves you do depending on who you're fighting. And also an acceptable concept. Maybe each of the points of power have a 'fighting style' associated with them, and you have to get into position to do so, otherwise, you're just hacking and slashing. Each stance would have it's own strengths and weaknesses used against ceratain opponents.

If that was the case, I wouldn't mind seeing an active defense system, even though some people would consider it 'twitchy'... it's a lot less twitchy than playing "avatar hero" and pressing the right button when the skill you want comes up.

All in all.... good job. I like it.

 

While I don't imagine it will be something done any time soon, integration of the Leap Motion controller might be a good stretch goal.
It would allow for a gestural casting or crafting system.

I've discussed a syllable based skill/spell construction mechanic in the past, so I'm a fan of those types of systems.

 

I was just reading about that Vjek. But according to the article I read from a few days ago only an HP laptop has this. But I like the idea if they ever start putting it in PCs.

Sorry bout the hijack Fireangel.

I like your idea, but I would have to be one of those folks who ties it to a key on my kybd. My typing sucks.

 

The controller can be purchased as a separate USB device. Here's a desktop shot. And here's a second desktop shot.

 

Leap would be interesting with the Rift. I think the game light be interesting with xbox and kinect.

But for this proposal, it might be an interesting way to build things way, way out of combat. Like to make a deck of skills in the crafting area. But it's just way to slow for real time.

Combat is one hand on mouse, one hand on WASD. Essentually your fingers are over Shift, A, W, D, Space. Every action should involve moving the fewest fingers, the fewest inches and allow you to hit them and return home without looking.

 

I have a couple Leap Motion controllers, but have not yet spent much time with them, downloaded a new beta package for Linux yesterday. I can at least say that they are quite neat. I imagine that some time in the future, people will be using Leap Motion controllers along with VR headsets like the Oculus Rift to immerse themselves into gaming.

Concerning targeting and moving while casting spells with three-letter mantra's/words of power, it's not that much different from using just one key, but a little more complex. Basically you're just using three keys to cast a spell instead of one, and you would have a key to start casting and a key to say you're finished. This means you can be running around, starting to cast and manage to type in the two first letters of a spell before you have to move around again, then when you have time to finish, you type in the third letter and hit your 'cast' key. Like this your character would not actually utter the word of power until you'd hit 'cast'.

The same applies for a heavy 6 or 9 letter mantra combination, but there should also be some timing mechanic involved, as well as a limit for how long you're allowed to delay between words of power to create combinations.

Thinking about it, there could be one or two letter words of power that on their own does not do much, but becomes a mantra when combined with other three-letter words of power and give their effect then.

This style is a lot more interactive and immersive, in my opinion. However, depending on how things are solved between combat and magic sigil's, one may quickly become a lot more difficult to use than the other. It will also be more time-consuming, perhaps making combat less fluid.

 

Not to worry fireangel, March 20th we'll be testing out the combat system... so we have some time to wait and see how we like it before we have to worry about suggesting other systems or changes to the current

I do think your ideas are interesting. I don't think they fit into the skill system they have though, it would require a whole rework of the game. sorry.

Also Vjek, they said they aren't doing stretch goals, they stopped it after kickstarter, we aren't even getting the new you stations.

 

Yeah, for the syllable system, that's why I proposed using an interface similar to the demonstrated crafting gump. You pull in varying syllables to create your skill/spell, then "craft" it, then you can put that into your spell/skill book. From there, you can hotkey or mouse-button-bind it.

 

It wouldn't really require a rework. Combat could be something as simple as

- stance key: agressive/balanced/neutral) as a modifier to the skill being used, and a stance only need be reset occasionally. Could cycle with tab or have set keys.
- focus key: which of the 8 (9? 10?) are you drawing from. Again, could be set and forget, only needing a change occasionally. Part of me thinks this would be set with which weapon are you using, and the agressive/defensive would slide you to one of the neighboring skill trees, but you can't use a hammer with fencint techniques, so no input needed.
- Special key: Which of the special techniques from that tree are you using. They'd have set numbers (or you could set the numbers/letters) and you just hit them to go.

It would force the player to play within limits, plan ahead what they think they're up against and come appropriately equiped.

Magic, I actually see no issue with 'macro' buttons. Ones where you set up the spell, but keep that limited in scope based on your intelligence. Otherwise, you could pull from your list on the fly if you think you could enter the code for that spell.

It would require no reworking of anything except dropping the deck and tweaking the UI... of which they said they want to redo anyway.

Or can you point out some skill, power, etc that couldnt' be activated with this system?

EDIT: As for the syllable being too slow for real time... Play magicka, which is a twitch based version of what's being suggested. It's gauntlet where you put in 2 - 7 syllables charged up, then release with another click either as a projectile, area effect, weapon enchant or self target. It would take some getting used to, but if you want to dump the interface, this would do it.

The more I think about it, the more I like it... maybe more than my suggestions. Good job.

 

yep.. i played and hated magicka... hated might be a little strong, but I really found it tedious/annoying.

and because their skill trees with points being invested wouldn't make sense with this sytem.

 

I’m tentatively fine with a system like this. It allows for all sorts of RP depth, but does it outside the realm of combat. The questions really then becomes whether we succeeded only in making something tedious that didn’t need to be.

I’m still assuming that crafting runs in two parts, like gw2. Where the discovery system looks like what they’ve shown and actual crafting can get some from recs. This can get you a pile of cards.

 

I was starting to find Magicka tedious until i started discovering the other spells, where you can create golems and then charge them with elements. It also got less tedious as the enemies started to varry more and more... that said... it's a super long game for it being a one trick thing. Only the magick system. I made it about 30 hours before I'd seen enough of it.

But honestly, that's a pretty good run for a game with one sytem. Any game gets tedious if it's just one system.

Shroud of the Avatar would also require exploration, dialogs, puzzles, hand to hand combat, shoping, inventory managment, etc.

You say it wouldn't, but you don't point out why. What couldn't you do with the tree system?

If' it's magic it could even be as simple as tree letter, spell letter. Two strokes to cast the spell. Would it be easier to just have one? Sure, but if you don't want a 123123123 then this would do that.

It would also open up the option of 'hidden spells' that you might not see in your tree, that you find from experimentation.

Combat had something very similar in the witcher, and it used a skill tree with multiple types of combat.

So, can you give an example of something that couldn't fit in this system?

See Asheron's Call for a similar concept in magic crafting.

 

Because having a skill tree where you invest points in it as you level up to claim what spells/skills you get doesn't make sense to have a system where you string words together to get your spells. That is my entire arguement, it doesn't make sense we'd have to do both or you have the option of getting different spells without the necessary investment of points or that you dont' need the levels in things.

changing batte stances is fine, it's been done in tons of games, muds were the first place I saw them. If they want to put it in fine, if not fine too. I don't find them exciting, but I don't have any issues with them either.