Ethnocentric/ Quasi-religious Content in SotA

You assume quite a lot about me that is unfortunately untrue. What I said was based on the simple fact that when people want to express problems with religious content, they pick out Christian religious symbols. Re-read the thread and tell me that my statement is untrue. This is also somewhat of a rant into all sorts of unrelated topics.

Again, why do you attempt to claim to know what I think?

I'm sorry you want to play the credentials game. I have a PhD in Theology and Religious Studies. I won't say more. Why? Because I've wanted to hear other people discuss the issue and have been posting when I feel people aren't engaging the debate honestly. I personally don't have any concern about religious content of any type in the game. Your statements above do not reflect a serious engagement with these issues for the simple reason that you refer wikipedia as a source, and the fact that you try present a complex thesis statement with the support of one paragraph. You may feel an undergrad level of education gives you all the authority you need. That's your call to make. Feel free to continue to present your opinions. But making them sound like facts is not going to help you.

Nothing I said indicates that I was making the "classic religious argument" whatever that is. Your logic is invalid.

Plus, as someone who has studied these issues, being able to make coherent arguments matters. Consider how problematic your statement is here. You are basically saying you yourself can make an absolutely true statement about the fact that there can be nothing absolutely true. See the problem? Please don't try to argue your problematic statement here because it will only continue to reveal problems in your thinking.

Where this comes from I don't know. Did someone indicate they don't understand change? I've traveled quite extensively and used the Internet quite extensively. What am I missing?

However, considering how many people liked your post, I really don't expect any level of understanding here. When I said you are passing off opinions as facts that is a true statement and you continued to do it in this post, trying to claim some moral highground. Only someone unwilling to look at their own logic and the gaps in their own thinking would find such a statement rude. Where these topics are discussed seriously, this is par for the course and there is lively debate about opinions.

I have never posted my opinions (noticed I said opinions and not facts) on matters of faith and religion and I won't. I don't feel this is the right venue, although it seems that you do. That's again your call. Speaking as someone who has engaged these issues deeply and talked with people of all sorts of faiths and none at all, please don't engage me unless you want to have a real discussion according to the helpful ways people speak about these topics, which I am always happy to explain if you want to hear them in a private message.

There are ways to have discussions about these topics that address biases, opinions, and continue to respect everyone and where they come from.

 

Unfortunately, if you were to pass this by anyone trained beyond an undergraduate level in these topics, they would not agree. I like what you normally say NirAntae but read my response and I hope it sheds light on just how problematic his post was. If not, all I can say is find an academic on these issues and run it by them if you don't trust me.

 

no im not getting the picture. What does a candle and a tree have to do with you PKing somebody.

All you need to be a PK is a PvP flagging system and players flagged for PvP. I honestly don't know what these candles and trees have to do with anything at all. I refer you to my last post. (post #116 on this thread)

 

Basically these items are just candles and just trees, unless you personally perceive them otherwise. So there is no problem with these items since they are just digital representations of items that honestly represent nothing but peace on earth anyway. It's not like a swastika, although I think most would be more accepting of swastikas than they would be of these silly little trees and candles. If you do perceive them otherwise then it is you who are intolerant, and unaccepting.

Since our characters are supposed to be us from Earth... Some people have asked in a thread from back in the beginning if it were going to be legal for them to teach the gospel in the game, and have church meetings etc.

Before you get all mad and stuff wait to see my point...

Wouldn't you think a person actually sharing their personal beliefs in game would have far more substance than a digital tree image, or a picture of a candle?

My point is that there will be other candles and other trees in this game. Why do the candles and trees in the store bother you more than the rest? It's not like the tree is announcing "Sin entered the world through one man, and death because of sin, but through the righteous act of the one man Jesus Christ (act being taking all sin away at the cross) righteousness and redemption is a finished work for all humanity."

I've never heard of or watched a person worship God on a tree. It really appears it is what these items represent that offends you so much. I'm sorry if religion has hurt you in some way. Religion can do that to people. Religion is great at heaping guilt, and many wars were fought over religion. However the tree and the candle should not cause any wars in SotA. let it be.

They had Holiday Trees in UO and it never killed anybody. You just have the option to use it or not. It doesn't effect immersion. If it does then just know it's your conscience not ours. You can't get away from it. Just like there is a moon in our world and a moon in SotA... in fact everything in New Britania is some how inspired from the real world. Mountains, trees, blue skies, rivers, oceans.... most these things exist only on earth not on mars or any other plantets. The other planets might have mountains but the rest is unique to earth as far as we know.

 

Indeed they do. And we really don't know how the populace of Novia celebrates life or death. However, we see gravestones inside the town walls of Owl's Head. This flies in the face of our knowledge but does it mean anything at all to the natives? We can either decide this was just temporary placement in the game or perhaps it does say something about their belief system. And was this the same to the peoples of Novia prior to the Cataclysm? We've no clue. But we can agree things do indeed change, especially in an entirely different universe.

Indeed there is! We've been told time again that the knowledge that once was prior to the Cataclysm and prior to our arrival, be it virtues or magic or other things, might now have different interpretations by the natives of Novia. That is, the survivors of the Cataclysm. It's implied that the generations previous to this incident had knowledge lost to time and likely different systems of beliefs.

I'm anxious to learn the meaning of "The Forsaken Virtues". But I'm both excited and fearful of what awaits us as we step through that portal. Part of me doesn't want to leave Owl's Head, but I know that I must to explore this Avatar's personal journey.

Agreed. The backers also have a choice to vote with their wallets, despite this being a crowd funded game. I've bought most items in the shop to support its continued funding, but I personally have not yet bought the holiday tree or menorah. Not because I'm against these items, but because I want to know what those mean in the context of New Britannian lore first.

For all I know, those could be harbingers of death and evil in the eyes of the native populace, or placing them in my home in the game causes children to be killed somewhere else in the game. Can I get a tub of dye now please so I can paint my doors red before the town is under siege?

If they're nothing more than keepsakes to make us feel at home while we're away from our real life homes, then that's fine too. Despite wanting to derive meaning from these items -- which I'd still love to know if these meant anything in New Britannia lore -- in all likelihood they have none other than being keepsakes, so I'll get the Yule Tree

 

Ahh we got an explanation of what changed for you in the conversation on conversations thread in the dev+ section (Can't share it here)... I'll just say it depended on what else you did in town... If you paid attention and played through everything and compared honesty to dishonesty you'd see it.

 

Wait til you find out what the cornucopia and the design of the viking village home mean. Wow.

 

Oh noes! I bought that cornucopia!!!

 

This is a great point. Why aren't people upset about the Viking house or the cornucopia, but they are besides themselves regarding a tree and a candle???

The argument that these items come from earth and it will lose immersion is null and void, because we have some German house (Eddelman) and German beer brewing technique in this game already. Those are directly taken from earth.

No this thread is only here because people are not tolerant of the people who want such items. In our culture these items mean nothing but fun holiday things to do with your family. These items don't promote terrorism or anything like that.

This thread is null and void, and immature.

EDIT: Somebody quoted this, and said if they called them just candle and tree it would be okay, but they called them Manora and Yule tree. My response is then they didn't just call the Eddelman House, a house, and the German beer brewing thing, just beer brewing. They called them German Eddelman houses, and Reinheitsgebot quality beer.

 

It could be a way for people to appreciate that everything has meaning and attachment to the real world in a game and that you can't avoid it.

It can also be a way for people to be honest about their own perspectives and what they like and what makes them uncomfortable. That might be too much to expect from this thread though. It's hard for people not to slip into the mode of presenting their personal preferences as universal truisms.

 

That's the same thing as saying you are uncomfortable with a certain race of people too. however it's not PC to be a racist, but it appears to be PC to be a bigot towards somebody's holiday preferences.

NO this thread is null and void. If people aren't willing to step outside of their comfort zones to be more accepting of one another then the problem not the tree and candle it's the conscience of the individual.

If you won't add Eddelman and the Viking house into the topic of this thread as being the same issue as the candle and tree, then this whole thread is biased and judgmental. If you are picking and choosing what Earth items are unacceptable you are being judgmental period. I will have no more part in this thread.

I also ask that the moderators close this thread on the basis that this thread is about bigotry rather than really discussing the issue of immersion due to Earth based items.

 

Interesting post comments... let us digress: how many people hate fireworks? Perhaps to celebrate New Years (lunar or not) or maybe war? I guess those intolerant of loud noises may require virtual ear plugs (aka mute button) to go along with the fireworks displays.

 

You know what's problematic? Atheists pushing their agenda on a gaming forum. I find that offensive. And you are definitely aiming to troll.

 

So I was in fact correct, but your answer to that is... to say my being correct proves me wrong? The original poster may have been rude in his phrasing but at least he was honest and was pointing out we can't have agreement on these issues, because they're not based on facts but on Faiths, and thus including the symbols of Faith is going to be contentious due to the nature of Faith itself. He told us clearly what his stance was; Why can't you be honest about what your obvious Faith is? You know why, because you've stated yourself it'll just spark arguments. So let's stay with the facts; why didn't you simply answer this question;

Is it or is not true that the 2 Bar, bisected cross is a specific symbol to those Churches that develop from the Western Empire of Rome?

Never mind where I link too; as a PhD (and I didn't say whether I also had a PhD in other subjects, but doesn't hinting that I might have even greater knowledge sound like I've been arguing in bad faith?) you were presumably trained in evidence evaluation at some point further along than I stated I had been, so I assume you cross checked the primary Historical sources footnoted currently on Wikipedia just as well as you did for the direct links? So whilst you don't have to honestly put your own brand of Faith on the table, you can state categorically whether it's a fact or it's not that the Greek and Russian Orthodox don't use the 2 bar, bisected cross today. Do they?

And whether it or is it not a fact that the original Roman crucifixions always used the 2 bar bisected type of cross, and whether the Bible states clearly what position the bar Jesus carried was then erected in? Or, as a related question, whether it's also either a fact or not that Arlington Cemetery no longer uses the cross shape for the Headstones there, preferring to etch in the symbolism relevant to those honoured below... what's the reason for that? What are the facts?

Where does that connect with Shroud? Someone above made the very obvious point that, if we're all arriving as Outsiders to the new lands, you'd expect everyone to bring with them their religions; Let me add to that, you'd only expect them to bring a limited set of religious symbols if they came from a limited geographical location in their original world. If you can't see why assuming that's going to be the case and that's a problem when transposed to a computer game with a limited budget in the Internet enabled world...

Well the Faith box has been opened now; it probably can't be closed again, so my argument is you'd be advised to include a wide selection of religious symbols just to allow equality of expression and avoid threads like these. But the idea that we should just ignore the elephant in the room because it's relatively well disposed to the sort of things we mostly do, just as long as no one honestly states what those things we do actually is, or challenges our insider status here in the room with the Elephant... is not exactly realistic, not when I can in 5 seconds actually pull your PhD paper and see what your beliefs actually are, if you gave me your name. As could you to me or anyone else; Information is no longer held exclusively in the Holy Books or the Ivory Towers of Academia as it once was, and you don't need to be smart to argue with those who exist there, just online. The world has changed. I was never in your particular Seminary, or even Country, but I can critique it and people can indicate they like that I do: That you're more concerned with disqualifying anyone who clicked "Like" on my post, rather than addressing why they might have done so, states quite clearly you don't like how it's changed...

But again... is it a fact or not that this thread exists? Respond to it honestly, because this sort of world is the one we've got now. And it's the world the Avatars are coming from, heading to a world that Ultimate Collecter was the dry run, social media based precursor for; and we all know how uncontentious over-sharing is in the modern media age, right? No, the storm is coming whether you like it or not, and this thread was just the first distant rumble; I would prefer to see Shroud weather that storm and have as wide an audience as possible. Wouldn't you? Then start by at least being honest that you know full well the 2 bar bisected is a Western Christian symbol. And the Menorah is Jewish too. And then let's have some other crosses, a few prayer rugs or a crescent moon symbol, a few fat laughing fellows, maybe some Pan type gods... as long as it's inclusive, why not? Why are some people so uncomfortable with that concept?

And no, no private conversations. If we're going to share the modern world, we have to do it openly. Not scuttling about because we think it's the best way to strategically win power for our relative positions; My left hand and my right hand can both see what each other is doing, and everyone else should be able to see where I'm trying to put those hands so they can honestly state whether they want my hands there... yes that leads to arguments; but in the modern world, that's where consent comes from too, people telling you where their boundaries actually are. And there's a whole lot of crowd-sourcing hands in this project, remember...

 

But gun imagery and violent US patriot imagery isn't? Deary, deary me... This ladies and gentleman is why it needs to be (at least an apparent attempt at) All or Nothing online; you just end up with contortions like the above, and whether you like or not, people have strong opposing opinions on your opinions, and they will bring it into the game too. And the game forums. Especially if they think you are allowed to express yours, but they also feel they can't... they walk from the game. How do people not understand how the modern online world actually works?

 

This post is really quite hard to understand. Maybe it would help if you slow down and try to make one point clearly to which I can respond.

I stated my perspective that no matter what my opinions I am quite comfortable with any way SoTA spins religious symbolism or doesn't for that matter. I don't want to debate what the cross is or isn't and that wasn't the purpose of this thread. My purpose in pointing out your now obvious fixation on the cross is that it reveals personal biases on your part that everyone has. Like I said, it's your call to make on whether your studies give you the right to proclaim things as historical facts. Personally, I believe that the issues you want to get into require far more precision, data and analysis than is appropriate for this venue.

If you read my original post in this thread, I'm all about having an honest conversation just one that doesn't take personal opinions and turn them into facts.

 

I've been part of communities and debates where people are able to be open about their preferences and discomforts in matters of religion without trying to enforce their perspectives as normative on all others. It's not common though. Just because some of the posters want to enforce their preferences as factual doesn't mean that others can't have an interesting discussion about meaning, religion and gaming. I think this is the way the original post was heading.

 

Melting pot vs Multiculturalism is a real and ongoing debate in the US and was carried into the game with the introduction of the German themed housing and items. RG's speeches around this time seemed to imply that there would be areas in SotA which appealed to different real-world cultures and geographies.

It becomes a weird fourth wall effect. You have an RPG but you're sort of playing "you." I don't know how this lore will work. Many people like role playing a character most certainly not them in terms of race, gender, ideology.

Perhaps this world does have Earth people bleeding in and spreading their culture. Perhaps there are players who simply don't want to be an Avatar from earth at all, wish to be immersed at a character from this world, and the game will allow them to have quests / story along these lines.

 

I don't honestly care about the quality of the post as an academic thesis. This is not college and we are not getting graded on minutiae. It is the message and overall reasoning and most of all the conclusions I was applauding.

 

Ironically, my first thought on seeing the Menorah reminded me of the ceremonial candlesticks that the Fellowship used during the brutal, ritualistic murders for the Guardian.

Again, outside of the game, anyone is welcome to their religious beliefs, but I will not support or purchase items that are based on them.