“Totally not an !” or Quest Markers must go

Discussion in 'Quests & Lore' started by Leinad Laurelwreath, Feb 22, 2017.

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  1. Vladamir Begemot

    Vladamir Begemot Avatar

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    Yes..... shouldn't the bartender and hairdresser know pretty much EVERYTHING?
     
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  2. Atticus Gryphonheart

    Atticus Gryphonheart Legend of the Hearth

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    One of the things I dislike about this marker is it also limits the type of quests that can be given. I was hoping eventually quest could be designed where you don't even know who you are looking for. Supposed to be someone at a particular location and say a key word, and get an item. But someone from an opposing faction is standing at that area instead (and discovered the key word...you just at the spot at the inappropriate time) and accidently give him the key word and don't get the item.

    You add quest clues...does it appear when the correct guy show or even the incorrect guy. It may just cause response, not allow critical thinking.

    I like the idea of having to going to a spot and wonder...hey did my guy show up early...or do I really need to come back in 30 minutes and make certain the right guy is there.

    If it only glows if correct guy is there...takes away. If a guy at the spot always glows, other peeps may get mad cuz they thought he was part of the quest and didn't take the time to truly understand what the quest was about.

    Edit...guess should have read further along and see LB addressed some issues already. Still hope the incorporate quests like above though.
     
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2017
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  3. Canterbury

    Canterbury Avatar

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    Rather than worry about what does, or doesn't, "insult people's intelligence", why not have something like the blue glow as an option for people?

    The gaming world has moved on -- a lot -- since the 1990s and many people are quite happy to play their MMOs in modern, contemporary ways.

    You'll always have sticklers for the old style of doing things, but if you put the choice in an individual's hand, it hurts no one else. It's quite simple, really.

    (Indeed, when I hear people who only want it done one way... the old school way... I worry that by not allowing others a choice, their motives aren't entirely pure.)
     
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  4. Vladamir Begemot

    Vladamir Begemot Avatar

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    Someone earlier implied that the blue glow is "Easy Mode"

    It's actually a pretty apt comparison. I used to make by young friend play his games on Hard after I found out he had been on Easy for years. I ridiculed him incessantly until he did it. His skills went through the roof, and he wouldn't go back.

    But if Easy should still be there. For my Mom, for others who I'm not going to belittle into playing on Hard. Maybe for me. I'm so old now.
     
  5. redfish

    redfish Avatar

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    @Vladamir Begemot ,

    Actually I kind of don't like that people divide it between Easy and Hard. Just because something isn't Easy doesn't mean its Hard; just because something isn't Hard doesn't mean its Easy.

    Some players won't settle for less than Hard, and think everything else is Easy. But the problem with a lot of modern MMOs is that they're stuck on Easy, thinking that everything more would be Hard.

    But, moreover, the issue often isn't even difficulty; it isn't Easy v. Hard. Or "new school" vs. "old school". We were discussing earlier in this thread about how if the storytelling and presentation were done right, nobody would need a blue glow or map markers to begin with, because players would be able to tell what was going on without them. So, its largely about setting quality standards.
     
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2017
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  6. Bubonic

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    I think a good portion of the angst (at least, for me) has nothing to do with whether or not people have the choice to turn it off. It's the concern that the addition of this "easy mode" or whatever you feel like calling it will take the place of the deeper, more nuanced interactions that have always been promised as a staple of SotA's design.

    Personally, I have absolutely no issue with the glow existing as an option, as long as the underlying mechanics are robust enough and user friendly enough that I don't NEED it to play comfortably. The other options that Lord British (and other community members in this thread) has described such as pointing, shouting, whispering, all of those would suit just fine.
     
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  7. Vladamir Begemot

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    Hopefully they can pull it off. Port seems to be the only ones who want to try, and I think the primary reason for that is it is hard work. Your design and implementation time go way up, I give them props for even trying.
     
  8. Canterbury

    Canterbury Avatar

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    I hear you, but if those, "more nuanced interactions" aren't there now, in a game that just needs some polish then she's good to go, I'll say very plainly that I doubt they ever will be.

    That's the kind of stuff that needs to be planned and implemented basically from the start, otherwise it's a massive overhaul job, not just a bit of polish as we're told the game now needs.
     
  9. Baratan

    Baratan Avatar

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    Things like this are never optional. The game will be designed around this mechanic.
     
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  10. By Tor

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    True, this complete reversal on what we were promised in Kickstarter is optional. The game preferences are already really long. If Port keeps creating new game mechanics (especially the ones that are not in the spirit of a certain successor), the game checklist may be approaching 100 or more by final release. I can only imagine the look of new players scrolling down a seemingly unending amount of options to turn on or off. I'm sure a lot of them may just throw their hands up and turn the game off instead.
     
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  11. Canterbury

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    Well, what a smart game would do is turn them ON by default, because it's actually a majority of MMO players who would appreciate them.

    That leaves a smaller, more experienced group of SotA gamers (who don't fall into that category), tasked with turning them OFF. That's how you do it.
     
  12. Koldar

    Koldar Avatar

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    It's not just new players - I do that every time I try to find various settings to enable/disable. It is quite a lengthy list. I've oft joked that this is Settings of the Avatar. :D
     
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  13. By Tor

    By Tor Avatar

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    Haha! Funny and true! And the settings will surely get longer...
     
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  14. Jaanelle DeJure

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    *peeks around* Has anybody noticed a strong uptick in the number of guards inside LB's castle? I think he might be sensing a revolt coming on... :D

    My "two cents simple solution" is to keep some side quests with high-quality rewards "secret" by disabling the glow mechanic for all players, and keep the option available for the majority of quest lines.

    Another more attractive- but also less simple- option would be to make it work more like a buff... there is some object that needs to be consumed for the glow effect to turn on, and then it only lasts for so long. New players receive a small bundle of said object as part of the intro sequence, and must quest for more after that. A clever implementation of this could even act to keep new players engaged- for example your "inner guide" potion lasts for 3 real days from the moment of consumption, whether the player is logged in or out.
     
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  15. By Tor

    By Tor Avatar

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    I did read (just now) Lord British saying that the glow is just a test of something more immersive (an npc waving at you). I agree, that is better. But - the people, like me, who backed this don't want npc's waving at us. We want to take the time to actually explore and find them - not have them waving us down. So, waving may be more immersive but it's still just a blue glow in disguise.

    I think the desire to please all of the people all of the time may seem like the right direction to the devs. This game, though, was built on the foundation of an old school game. It has and continues to morph into something of a hybrid between the old and the new. That may sound like a sound idea now - but instead of the choices between a niche game that a small and loyal group love or mainstream game that a huge audience will buy and play for awhile... we will end up with neither.

    I hope I'm wrong. I really am loving the game and want it to go on forever.. but these kind of decisions may take SotA, a game I backed heavily both financially and emotionally, into the abyss.
     
  16. Jaanelle DeJure

    Jaanelle DeJure Avatar

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    There may yet be hope! But I think it might require a somewhat different mindset. We keep getting solutions that seem to be aimed at striking a compromise- or middle ground- but ends up leaving everybody feeling dissatisfied, as you say. Allowing players to opt in or out of these things is a good move, but still kind of "meh" in my opinion.

    What I would like to see are more truly innovative solutions where all the views of the different stakeholders are taken into account, and solutions are intentionally devised to take as many perspectives into account as possible.

    I suppose there is no way for the game to avoid being a "hybrid" however I think it is totally possible to create a deeper, richer layer to the game that can only be accessed through "old school" play.
     
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  17. Nemo Herringwary

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    The problem is that many of us former backers had tried to point out basic mechanics like this were horrendously unwieldy and broken for quite some time; this issue of tracking information has come up many times, and we were largely ignored when making it, because the community here is especially unwilling to accept more modern MMO conventions. But there's a practical reason why 3d game engines resorted to using the dread exclamation mark, and that's because unless the NPC is literally jumping up and down to attract attention, you can't be certain a hand gesture etc will be seen over the visual distances that a player will, on average, see an NPC correctly scaled in a 3d environment... especially if the player is hard of sight. Yes, disabled people play computer games too, and inclusivity shouldn't be a dirty word or mislabelled as Easy Mode.

    At this late stage in development, you can't be certain yet you'll escape that problem either. Nor can anyone else; but here's one proposed solution I previously put up; Give the player a key to press which lets the Avatar's own head track for information. I originally suggested it for tracking threats, but apply it so the Avatar in towns looks towards NPCs that are trying to get their attention. It should be a key toggle, so as not to over-ride people's ability to Roleplay, and it's subtle enough to not be an in game "radar." And you'll still have to use it intelligently, unless the Avatar suddenly develops a Linda Blair style 360 degree head habit.

    But notice half the comments in my thread are people saying what a terrible idea it was; this thread in turn is declaring recent tweaks a Betrayal... and yet we discover, only months from final launch, that even Lord British can't follow his own quests? That's a far more important issue than whether major backers demand the wheel not be reinvented.
     
  18. By Tor

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    I didn't have a problem talking to NPCs and figuring out what to do in Ultima. What's wrong with "Find the beggar near the pub" or "There's a fisherman by the docks who may help you" as clues. That would get the player to explore a little.. maybe meet a beggar who isn't the quest giver who has an interesting story to tell - or a fisherman who has a great fish story to tell. Maybe the next fisherman is the quest giver ... but it adds a little mystery and immersion istead of them flagging us down. No mystery or immersion in that.
     
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  19. Net

    Net Avatar

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    And should not pretty much everyone know where to find inn, or town crier?
    Well, I would rather have long list of options I can check on or off as I want rather than being forced to play one way. I do not see why checklist with default setup is worsee in any way then default setup with no options to change anything. I mean you are not forced to go into options, you can set everything to default and pretend you havee no options to change things.

    I on the other hand appreciate games with lengthy settings, 10,15 years ago a lot of games had like 4 pages of advanced graphics settings. I do not want to play simplified games leaving you only option to turn graphics onn or off.
     
  20. Lord_Darkmoon

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    One of the problems is that some people still see SotA as a MMORPG. But it is a hybrid game.
    It is also a single-player game. And when playing SotA as a single-player game it shouldn't play and feel like a MMO.
    No one needs a offline MMO.
     
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