A new resource to provide incentive for PvP

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Mimner, May 19, 2020.

  1. OzzyOsbourne

    OzzyOsbourne Avatar

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    I can dual weild someone from stealth and destroy them no matter who they are if I get a good offhand spam chain. That is the advantage you look for when you are dual weild, but it comes with risk. It works very well with parry against another melee, that is what its strong against. Not someone pelting arrows against you. Rock Scissors Paper. Dont pick paper and complain that scissors cuts you up.
     
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  2. Chemeck

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    I'm far from complaining, i just dont want to go stealth/shield/heavy armor or anything else out of my current build to compete, so im stating why im not and probably wont do PVP. It's not a big loss for me. Paradoxically in games with actual classes (lets say black desert online with 17 of them) each class has actual chances in pvp combat against any other, you dont have to pick one to beat another one. That's what balance is in my understanding :) Other thing is I'm still missing few tousands hours of gameplay to even be able to compete with people who're doing actual PVP in this game, whatever i pick :p I just crossed 800 hours in SOTA, still working on combat skills i picked up for myself and still completing good quality gear fitting those combat skills, im nowhere near to be able or even wanting to invest another hundreds of hours or tons of money to rebuild myself or start working on another role just so i have any chances vs another player.
     
    Last edited: May 25, 2020
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  3. FrostII

    FrostII Bug Hunter

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    @OzzyOsbourne Since you spoke directly to me here (as I have spoken directly to your posts) - and accused me of being a troll:
    I now respond to your not so subtle accusation of my being a troll and overly negative.

    I deviate from the OP ?
    The OP calls for making a new resource in pvp only scenes, that can be used to create better armor than what we all currently have, and if you are killed collecting it the killer gets to keep it all for himself.
    Mimner finishes his OP with the comment:
    Personally I have nothing against pvp for the sake of pvp - up until the point where resources are put into the game that only spawn (or spawn in much greater quantity) in pvp zones - and that is what the OP desires and I vehemently disagree with the concept in it's entirety - and have the right (as do you) to agree or disagree.

    What caught my attention and brought me to this thread has been the recent focus by Chris on Fzol and using precious dev time to focus on pvp matters. (Yes, I am aware Fzol has ideas/comments about things outside of pvp - but we all know (those who've managed to watch his streams with Chris) his primary focus is pvp.

    Believe me when I say that this hasn't gone unnoticed by the pve community.

    As to your statement that I'm "following you around" - you flatter yourself.
    I don't follow you around, but I do follow (and comment in) threads when the topic or main focus relates to pvp matters, because dev time devoted to pvp is time away from pve matters -and often counter to them.
    The fact that you spend lots of time in those types of threads is the reason I read your posts and not that I have some sort of vendetta against or fascination with you - it's all about your concepts of what would be good for the game that I so vehemently disagree with.

    You might notice that I didn't comment on this thread until the point where your comments were all about the horrible pvp failures here and then go on to disagree with suggestions from other pvp'rs and how pvp has been "murdered countless times by non-pvpers" (which, of course as a pve'r, perked my ears) - and I quote:
    (And you accuse me of being negative).

    It was at that point that I said:
    And, of course it went downhill from there.

    Let me make myself perfectly clear.
    I have absolutely NOTHING against pvp - in and of itself.
    But when you say that pvp here is dead and worthless and it's all the pve'rs fault that I must respond.
    Shall I go over the many pvp ONLY resources that SotA has dedicated to pvp'rs since day 1 ?
    (Actually I believe that a friend is taking that up tomorrow, so I'll leave that part to her).

    I have nothing against you, Ozzy - it's what you want for the game that I play and enjoy that I completely disagree with.
    Peace, brother......
     
  4. OzzyOsbourne

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    There are already a litany of stuff only in pve zones... i just dont understand you...

    Since you are here, why not stick to the thread instead of hijacking it with your hatred of me?
    I would want nothing more than this game to flourish. I do not simply want PVP aspects. I want pure roleplaying aspects. Stuff that sticks to the lore. Fzol has his own ideas. I have my own. We dont all agree and I definitely do not have Chris's ear. Nor does Fzol. There has not been a single PVP thing since the obsidian trials... do you remember when that was? A VERY LONG TIME AGO.
    The OP has a good idea, I like it. But it would never work with the state of pvp is in currently. I appreciate your comments on the subject but you are never constructive in any pvp post. Wouldnt take long to make a list.

    Oh please do... and exclude the obsidian trials because its been broken forever.
     
    Last edited: May 26, 2020
  5. Xiones

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    That almost every game. Range/Mages always win, but remember under the subterfuge tree you do have the skill "Engage Opponent" What they need to do is increase the range on that skill, were you can

    Engage Opponent, and then stun, melee, stun, melee, stun....
     
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  6. OzzyOsbourne

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    They broke Engage Opponent. It used to work properly, now it doesnt bring you close enough anymore. At 120 skill, it was on ALL my decks, now its better to 5stack dash and fleet flute and body slam. If they fixed Engage Opponent to how it used to work, it would be nice.... Now I never use it.
     
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  7. Spungwa

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    What Eve did right was putting the option to engage in PvP in the hands of the defender. Even though it is non - consensual PvP, if a player knows what they are doing and is not AFK it is next to impossible to engage them unless they want to be engaged.

    I'm not a PvPer, but I played Eve for 13 years. Eve made PvPers work for their kills, as when i was doing whatever, I would see the them in local , probably already know the ship/fleet comp from intel channel, if not D-scan would tell me. I would be aligned and able to warp out before they could catch me.

    So PvPers had to make it look like a fight I had a chance to win or I just escape.

    It was very hard to gank players in Eve that know how to play. Gate camps could kill people but again, using a a scout should mean you never have a gate camp problem. The choice to be in harms way is with the defenders not the aggressor. Otherwise it is game of cat and mouse with the defender escaping, and if the defender knows what they are doing it is very hard to catch them. But the cat and mouse game is fun gameplay for both the cat AND the mouse, not just the cat.

    If you want non PvPers in an PvP environment then you need to make it that the non PvPer can't get ganked with no way to avoid it.


    Regards
    Spung
     
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  8. Violet Ronso

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    And there is no way to avoid it you say? There is a screen you can open up called "Nearby Players" that lets you know when someone else has joined the zone, acting like a "Scout". Now once that is done, the players retains (bar a few things I would call bugs) his anonymity until you actually see him, so it is your choice to remain in the zone to discover who it is and if you want to take on the challenge, or simply run to any extremity of the zones, because there are exits nearly anywhere.

    Why though? Could you explain to me why you would not want items to be acquired by PvP Players? Currently the market is 2 ways : Crafters <--> PvEers, with PVPers who buy from both but bring nothing to the table. If you want nice gear, the crafter can make it and sell it, and if you want artifacts, you go see the PvEers, but PvPers have nothing, can't bring nothing, unless they decide to join one of the other two groups.

    PvPers are not asking the market to become theirs, what they want is a way to participate in the market while doing what they want! This is why a PvP zone specific drop that allows for something new is interesting, if you want it, you have two choices :

    1. Participate, while risking the possibility of PvP (which is SUPER easy to avoid anyways) (Risk vs Reward here) or,
    2. Market, buy things from the PvPers, just like how PvPers buy their stuff from all of you.

    I don't think this is a huge ask, and I think this will affect TONS of players, I am not gonna say that this will bring in tons of new players, but it will help with player retention because there is finally a rewarding end game (because PvP is considered End Game content, surprise!) and also bring back SO MANY that left because at one point you get tired of risking for no reward. This game was always centered around risk vs reward before, and now, it is No Risk for the Reward.

    Tons of investment was done to the PvE crowd, Tons of dungeons, of nice scenes, bosses and what not, meanwhile the majority sits on Control Points, half of them must be botting, so I doubt that putting even more efforts into PvE that will be put aside once again for another CP is the way to go.
     
  9. Mimner

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    It is exactly this walling off of PvP from the rest of the economy which has destroyed open PvP. Open PvP is not PvP for PvP's sake, it is spontaneous. Danger lurks around every corner and you never know when it will strike. With open PvP there's no need to have a balance in power, as less skilled players still reap rewards in such a system through its connection to the greater economy. Battle royal, leaderboards, stat caps, and queue systems are all concepts that work well in balanced PvP scenarios, where everyone is equal from the start. That's not a good model for a progression game because, due to progression, players are not balanced. Nor should they be equal, because that generates resentment from people losing all that work they put into progression.
     
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  10. Spungwa

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    Which gives me zero intel into if I should take that fight or not.
    It basically means I just run and leave the zone, where is the fun for either side?

    Examples

    EVE scenario : I see new player in local. In Eve, I spam D-scan see the ship type(s) if they get close and make a judgement call if to engage, or if I can survive long enough for friends to get to me and help etc.
    SOTA Scenario : I see new player in nearby players (not sure this even works in PvP zone but lets say it does). Unknown assailant with zero info of build, level etc, therefore zero risk vs reward evaluation => I leave.

    Eve Scenario : If you are cloaked (stealth in Eve), then when you uncloak you have a cool down on being able to lock me and therefore attack or stop me, so again I make a call on your ship vs my ship and choose if to engage or run.
    SOTA Scenario : You do sneak attack while still in stealth. Fight is over before it even started.........

    There was never a time in Eve, when I looked back at a ship loss that I could not determine a wrong decision I made that meant I did not get away, or it was my own mis-evaluation of the opponent when choosing to fight them. Therefore the ship loss was ALWAYS my fault, not the attackers. No scenario was hopeless and never a no win (which could be escaping rather than winning, in a mismatch, escaping is winning as the defender) scenario.

    Regards
    Spung
     
    Last edited: May 26, 2020
  11. Prada

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    Probably sounds plausible to those who do not know first hand...

    But to those that do, you left out so much, the main thing being risk vs reward, factions, and PVP is not flagged on and off...in PVP, you can always track your death back to an error you made...
     
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  12. Spungwa

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    Exactly, actually what I wrote in the second post. But I just don't think that kind of thing can be retrofitted to a game that is not built completely around those mechanics from the beginning.


    Regards
    Spung
     
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  13. Xiones

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    Sad. They need to fix it, or update the skill, Take Engage Opponent and Body Slam combine them into one skill put it under tactics or make a Combo....
     
  14. SmokerKGB

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    Don't know, never played it, but it seems like "Open" PvP, so you will never see me there...

    Mmm, no... Let their game alone(but I bet they have studied SotA)... What respectable game developer doesn't study their competition?

    Well, I don't drink Beer and I don't watch football, so... I'm having fun just playing SotA as is: I don't have to worry about any "opponent" and that's fun to me... I respect your oppinion and how you want to make PvP better(for you), but trying to Bait me with special resources won't do it for me... It would just cause me to complain about these resources only being available in PvP areas(I can scream as loud as you)...

    As I said before: your beating a dead horse here, but the issue keeps coming up... I gave you some ideas as alternatives...

    Fun for who? Attacker or Prey? 1 on 1 or gangster? If you could figure out "How" to make it 1 on 1, I would listen... Or is it "Fun" for you to out number your Prey? Group play is always easier...

    I've never seen any "RP" in PvP, in fact most of what you're promoting, I've heard before(many times before, all good on paper, not so good in reality)... VR, I got VR, so what's that got to do with PvP?
     
  15. Prada

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    You may be right, but I hope not...
     
  16. Prada

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    Since you are not familiar with EVE...

    EVE is everything...what I mean is that the guys from Iceland (CCP) had a vision to try to create an open universe, where all things are possible, all things...how immersive is that?

    EVE was released in 2003...

    17 years later, EVE averages 25,000 players online...

    EVE is the metric for the MMO gaming industry in many ways!

    Exploring, resource gathering, manufacturing, companies, role play, deception, factions, piracy, bounties, betrayal, murders...and massive wars with thousands of players participating!

    While 0.0 Space is truly open PVP, that's the end game for the hardcore professionals seeking the adrenaline rush and conquest...

    0.0 is the Biggest area in EVE; the Badlands, where the Badasses, create a Bad Hair Day for their victims...

    The point being, you can play forever and never venture to 0.0, but to test their mettle, most players eventually do...

    I wish for SOTA to have this sort of vision and success...a 0.0 badlands of some sort is needed for the end game...
     
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  17. Spungwa

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    I do think there could be good and interesting PvP in SOTA though. Personally I would START with Arena PvP with a queue system. The queue system is key too, don't want to wait around doing nothing until an opponent turns up. Ensure you get reward win or lose.

    For SOTA, I think PvP more along the lines of what Archage did (original not played unchained) is probably better. What Archeage had was an Arena (rewarded win or lose), some open world areas (but only trade packs drop as loot not gear), Scheduled PvP events daily (faction vs faction objective based 1ish hour events, again rewarded win or lose, more for winner), then finally guild vs guild weekly events (This involved owning land with bonuses).

    Regards
    Spung
     
  18. Violet Ronso

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    Smoker, would you mind telling me why this is an issue? You have artifacts in PvE zones. Crafters have their crafted gear, but PvPers have nothing they can bring to the table.

    Why can't PvPers have that special something they can inject to the market that would made them useful to the economy? Everyone else has something!
     
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  19. Morgathys

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    It's pretty much in line with my opinion that I shared earlier in this thread.

    To me, this thread is a big & deep discussions on how to put aside the fundamental mechanics that game required. Sorry to burst your bubble but that make no sense to prioritize the PVP development with the existing issues.
    I'm really blown away that Elgarion is taking the time to organize a PVP Event when anybody else could create this event (community event thing), I'm pretty sure if someone organize a solid PVP project that the Dev team would be pleased to provide the prices and the visibility.

    Good Job Elgarion
     
  20. Violet Ronso

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    Like they have done with the EVL tournaments, or with the nice seasonal PVP ladder that the community built? Nope. PVP has been getting the shaft since the beginning, and what people are asking in this thread is not months of development, it is something, anything, just a small extra currency that would drop in PvP to incentivize PvP. Obsidian fragments, that an NPC could want for something. Yes OP is asking for it to be tied to crafting with a new crafting tree, but many would settle with an NPC shop that would sell consumables, mats and anything of the sort.

    Devs already spend so much time on PvE to have everyone go back to spending hours non stop in ERG, why couldnt they do something to please another crowd for once? Because other systems are broken? Then why add the bard tree, why create a new dungeon, why create new zones? **** is broken, if no time can be spent on PvP because of broken ****, no time should be spent on new PvE stuff either.