A plea for the single player experience.

Yes I agree mostly with Bubonic's assessment. The SPO mode of SotA should be able to stand on it's own similar to the original single player Ultima games. It should also have the unique play-style, feel, and complexity of a 'next-generation' Ultima game. I've not seen a lot of that yet but it's still early. I guess another way to pose the question is: what are the critical features needed to give SotA the 'right' experience?

 

Yep, totally agree with Bubonic. I have made similar threads. What scares me is those saying be quiet they are working on it is that if we do we will end up with nothing we want in the game...or not the game that was promised.

I brought up these very issues before and got a curt storyline is comming along great...like story is the only thing that matters to single players.

Companions have changed since what they said on kickstarter...i know since I asked the questions and now the answers are totally different. The companions the way they are now totally change the feel of the single player game.

Crafting seems to be a major drive in where you will buy things, and thats what RG said in another thread...but where does that leave the single player game? I asked and was told by another poster well you should play online then...no comment from devs.

Cities as they stand right now are a subdivision of player lots. They don't feel like any ultima cities I remember...(yes I know this is not ultima so don't bother saying that, I mean the feel)

There are certain things that work great in a MMO...like emotes, role playing areas, pvp etc but have very little meaning to the single player.

At the moment I wonder if we are getting a single player MMO.


I am totally tired of hearing that they are working on the story and it's a secret...I am well aware of that and like many posters on here I don't want that...I just want to feel like single player isn't a tacked on feature when it wasn't stated as such in the KS. I should be able to sit down and play start to finish as a single player game if I so choose and have it feel like a complete game.

 

When I read about the game during the Kickstarter campaign on the Kickstarter site and every other media covering the project I got the impression that when I play in single player that game would play out like a 3D version of Ultima 7. I thought that this game would be a full fledged single player game that would take everything great from the SP-Ultimas and combine it into a fantastic single player experience. So when you play the game in single player mode you would not only experience a great story but that this story would be supported by these things:

1. A deep complex companion system in which your companions would talk to you, have their own personalities and agendas. They would have quests you could follow to learn more about them, you could romance them, they could betray you. You could train them, manage their gear and inventory and give orders to them about how they should behave on the battlefield.

2. Complex NPC schedules. I had thought that the NPCs would behave at least as complex as in Ultima 7 - get up in the morning, open the window shutters, sit down to eat, walk to their shop, work, go the pub in the evening and then go home to sleep. And they would NOT teleport to their next destinations like it was the case in Ultima 8, but you could follow them around.

3. Getting the feeling of being THE hero in the world without respawning boss monsters, repeatable quests, other players doing the exact same quests I do etc. - because I am in single player mode.

4. High interactivity with you being able to move things around, bake bread, forge swords, cut wheat etc.

5. A conversation system that supports and presents the story in an exciting way. The least I expected was something like in other RPGs where you click on the NPC you want to talk to and then you get a conversation UI through which you talk to the NPC face to face. This would support you getting to know the person you are talking to, building a relationship with him/her. So that you recognize the person when you meet him/her again, thus making the NPCs interesting and meaningful.

6. A living world that you can explore. Walking around in a world teeming with life. animals roaming around, trees swining in the wind, birds flying by, clouds drifting by, just being able to experience the feeling of a lush world. Now we knew from the very beginning that we wouln't get a monoscale map. But the 3D overland view they showed back then could have been a great substitution for exloring the world, it would at least have given the illusion of exploration.

Of course I knew that SotA would also feature an MMO-mode and I was fine with it. Having the ability to go into MMO mode, seeing others, playing with others, craft, hunt, gather etc. would be interesting. But I never thought that the MMO mode would compromise the single player part in a huge way.
Now they are concentrating on makeing SotA a housebuilding simulation to cater to the MMO folks, the companions are only pets, the conversation system is an MMO-chatroom, letting the story take place in a chat, you will not be able to manage the gear and inventory of your pets/companions and as it seems even the respawning and repeatable quests will at least be somehow present in sp-mode, too. Not to mention the new overland map... Even the world does not feel like in a single player game as everywhere you look there are house lots, even in the forests - but ok, I could live with that.

The only thing from my list that seems to be done they way I would have expected it is the world interactivity - yaaaay!

My impression right now is that at some point during the development they decided that the MMO-part would be much more important but simply couldn't cancel the SP-part as that would anger some backers. But they dumbed it down further and further until it was nothing more than a MMO with story that you can play alone.

I may be mistaken and I hope that I am and that they come up some sort of Ultima X that could stand on ist own if they would sell it as a stand alone single player game but somehow I fear that I am right...

 

Does anyone know if anyone in the DEV+ area is pushing for the single player portion of the game?

 

if i read your post i see all points a good RPG ( be it single player or MPO) needs. so i guess they are aware of that i think they will implement all of your points without to much compromise for the MPO part ( monster/quest respawn being the biggest one)

so iwouldnt worry to much for now

 

While I am not a UO person, I'm here because of love of single player Ultima and Ultima Lore, I must say, I never expected this to be like a real Ultima sequel from the very beginning.

I knew RG's track record over the last 10 years.

I knew they were trying to make a new Selective Multiplayer Experience which meant it could never be a *true* single player Ultima

I knew they were going to have to drive the game through selling items via a store.

So I tempered my expectations because of that.

Personally, I'm just along for the ride at this point, any pledging I did was primarily increasing my own Karma (current: 75) from pirating LB's UIV back in the day.

Yes, I get to be a bother or a foil on the forums, get into my alter ego a little and read a pretty fun pulpish tale.

I'm also no longer 12 and the Dragonlance cycle is no longer my favorite fantasy series. I'm not expecting James Joyce or Falkner.

So, while I certainly don't want to dampen the protestations of the many RP'ers in this thread, I would say "tempering thine expectations is a virtue"

*edit* and to add to that, on the plus side we've got a pretty cool map, we've got a cool backstory considering other games' backstories (Bethesda??? are you listening ?! hah!) and the community here, well at least most of us are pretty interesting and cool people.

Personally - I think *somebody* should make a U7 style retro clone with a modern take on isometric tiling that runs on mobile or handheld gaming devices. that's a different game and market segment but there is a niche demand for it methinks... maybe in alternate timeline

 

If we don't bring these points up and let it rest then they will never be in game.

If the point was to never have it at the level of the older ultima's, they should not have been name dropped on the kickstarter as what they were aiming for.

 

Well, to be fair, they never said they were aiming to recreate Ultima... what's your favorite ? 7 ? surely not 8 or 9 right ? Those were terrible.

They said it was the "spiritual successor" to that series... and it is. It's just not going to have 8 companions, Hole up and camp or any of those things.

It is going to have a cool community and runic, nice music, the virtues (maybe ?) and a map strangely reminiscent of Ultima III... but I digress

 

On the Kickstarter site it says:
"Shroud of the Avatar is the “spiritual successor” to Richard’s previous work in the FRP genre. Our primary objectives are to tell a story even more compelling than Ultimas IV-VII, create a virtual world more interactive than Ultima VII,..."

So there is lot of Ultima VII mentioned which can bring some people to the conclusion that SotA would be very much like Ultima VII.

 

Yeah he did say it would be interactive. I was hoping to see that from the beginning but we haven't seen that.

Personally, I'm usually a single player game person, but the most fun I've had in the game has been taking off my character's armor and jumping off the Owl's Head bridge in my skivvies

to join an impromptu pool party of 10 people

That was super fun. It was casual, it was good interaction and I was hopeful we'll see more of that simulation type stuff when the real game launches.

That was about a thousand times more fun than any of the red sash quest stuff.

That's why I really don't want non-consenual "hardcore" pvp. Then the game will just be like a multiplayer map and awesome interactions like that will all die.

I'm actually planning on doing a little PvP, but I'd like to also craft and just live a normal life in the world some too.

 

Community is nice for the online game. A form of virtues were mentioned in the kickstarter...haven't heard anything since.

Like I said if they weren't aiming to be compared to those games why mention them?

 

In that case, you can also look at it like this... they got almost 4x what they needed to secure additional financial resources. I think the point is when people say things in these forums like "its a good idea but I dont want it if it means already stated idea in the KS wont be implemented"; it's kind of irrelevant being that they got all the funds they said they would need for their stretch they outlined.

Plus I chuckle when people say these things as though they are fiscally conscious of the exact total amount SotA has obtained from lenders. It's our job at this point to express ideas and comment on eachothers ideas. Its the SotA teams job to decide if they are financially achievable.

 

You raise an interesting point which I have often pondered in solitude. U7 was huge. Massively popular. Has gone down in CRPG history as either one of the greats, or THE great (depending on your point of view). If all RG had done was promise a single player game using an updated version of that engine (higher resolution and color depth), with a fresh landscape and story, I'd like to think that A) it would be (relatively) easy/inexpensive to make with today's tool-sets at hand and B) it would sell like gangbusters.

I think (just my opinion) that CR has gotten his millions because he has basically promised an updated Wing Commander, albeit with all the dials taken to "11", but fact is the "format" is prety much unchanged. He's not reinventing the wheel. We on the other hand remain confused as to exactly what we are backing...

But I digress...

 

I'm no expert in the production arc of a game like this, but given the time which has past vs. forecast remaining, I would say we are WELL PAST "designing it" and are locked into "producing it".

 

I am in favour of doing whatever it takes to create a strong single player experience, as per Ultima 7. I'm too young to have played the game when it was released but was introduced to it by way of my Mentor and have played it recently (a year ago).

It might be an old game, but it has a richness and depth to it that trumps most modern RPGs I've experienced.

If they could recreate a fraction of the emotions I felt while adventuring in Britannia ala Ultima 7, I would be a happy girl.

 

+1.

I'll add to the list hiding around the corner and waiting until midnight to see the revolutionaries have their secret meeting.

And getting skull keys out of the tree.

 

Nice Post Bubonic.

Personally, I agree totally on the NPC interactions and Companions. With the NPC's, I did feel somewhat dis-jointed from the conversation and I really could not put my finger on it, but now that you have mentioned it - I agree. The callout with the NPC's portrait on conversation would really add to feeling that I was talking to THEM.

You know, I'm not sure they even need to design a ton of portraits, why not use the NPC Character itself? They already have it. Duplicate it in a call out tab/window/whatever, Zoom in on the face and shoulders- Focus on the face and perhaps use the emote system to accentuate the conversation. The duplicated NPC would react, but not the main one in game.

By doing this, you could carry on the conversation using the same graphics and emotes already created but the NPC would focus on YOU in the call out window. Then you would not have to worry about everyone else seeing how the NPC was reacting, AND if someone else started a conversation with that NPC, they would be getting their own call out window with another copy of the NPC performing that needed conversation. This could solve a lot of problems like, "I'm already speaking to someone..." The world NPC could still react to others.

I dunno, just a thought.

But yes, I also hope the Companions are rich, thought out and vocal. Interjecting in conversations and such. That was a huge part of Ultima's charm IMO.

 

I'm not demanding that it be exactly like ultima 7, but it should be close to that and able to be played as a single player game or it just isn't a single player game.

What I do want is the feel of what ultima 7 was, maybe to some of you that is unreasonable but I don't see it that way.

 

Something similar to this has been suggested previously. Not sure which would require more overhead, but 2d portraits would help overcome a current issue of amount of models. Its a lot less expensive to do a 2d portrait in 3 hours or so (and yes, for the right artist, that's all it should take. We aren't talking about Rembrandt here.) than to model, texture, and rig characters, and right now they are re-using models very heavily.

 

Generally, I would scoff at threads like these and tell people to chill and wait for the finished product.
Unfortunately, we've been able to see beyond the veil in the Portalarium studios, and this is what we've been shown thus far:
-WAY TOO MUCH emphasis on housing.
-Almost as much work on crafting - though it remains dishearteningly incomplete.
-A very, very rough NPC conversation system.
-Almost no combat.
-Almost no lore.
-Companions are still in the air, and are likely going to vaporize or not be implemented with any sort of robustness until far later.

The last four points drive home a very strong sense of worry.