All consequences are taken out of the story-game

Who knows, the Iraqi dinar might finally be revalued, NESARA might be announced and that prince that has been promising to send you that trunk of money might come through.

 

The thing is... and this is something I come back to again and again and again when talking to people about this game... we should have that "good idea about gameplay" already. Long ago, actually.

The gameplay should have been worked out, by very smart people and a whiteboard, at the start. And all coding since that time should have been creating that. Not still radically changing things, years on.

Indeed, the gameplay should have been down, broadly speaking, when we took our first steps around that first town. Then, with the gameplay down, all the additional areas, quests, etc, would be built on that blueprint.

Of course, that scenario could include tweaks along the way but NOTHING LIKE the way we're years down the path and gameplay still lurches all over the place. Remember the combat changes before persistent?

The devs get a free pass from so many of you with a simple, "We're not finished yet..." and a wave of the hand, Jedi mind trick style. But not all of us fall for that. The "good idea about gameplay" was due long, long ago.

 

Yes where are the design docs, when where these design changes put into place? We as backers should have been said here is the layout of the ideas as of Whatever date. This is what we are aiming for and these are the goals for each release. Here is how we will be putting these systems into place. All we have gotten is its going to be "good" and "original" but that doesn't work when we have not seen what the plan is. We have only gotten roadmaps for 3 months and those are thrown out the window when you decide to. You said we would have the rough outlines prior to persistance but then turned around and said no were going to polish this one story line and that story line still is garbage. Its a lot of go here talk say keyword go to next person say keyword.

Example is when you said originally that the text would be like talking to a real person all we really got was keywords to trigger conversation advancement not talking to the NPC. Your better off with a Mass Effect conv system then what we currently have.

Yes things can change but that first year should have been spent this skill should do this and X amount of damage. NPC Guards should be able to protect themself and other NPC in town from Players or other evil NPC that get spawned in during events. But all we got were NPC that open gates when you say the password and look like clones of each other.

 

I agree that the guards should do something...

But if you do escape the guards, why shouldn't there be a bounty on your head, and why shouldn't players be able to collect the bounty ? You say you'd be "punished" by PvP. Is that different from being punished by NPCs? Stealing would result in punishment of one kind of another. The question is why there should be a wall of separation between PvE and PvP, and whether this is anything the devs ever promised us. (No, they did not).

The problem with PvP in UO, in my opinion at least, was that there were not enough consequences to it and it was so invasive to other aspects of the game that it destroyed role-playing. But bounty-hunting someone who committed a crime is the perfect example of role-playing. Which is why I support it.

There could be a good argument against player bounties. But what I don't agree with is the "this feature is against my playstyle" argument that tends to dominate forum discussions for every topic. Regional economies shouldn't exist, because not being able to have anything anytime I want isn't my playstyle. Food shouldn't have a purpose, because eating isn't my playstyle. I should be able to grow anything I want anywhere, because not being able to grow corn underground isn't my playstyle. I should be able to do anything as easy solo as I can do in a group, because grouping isn't my playstyle. I should be able to do anything as easy being a pure archer as anything else, because magic and melee aren't my playstyle. Much of the anti-PvP arguments end up being the exact same kind of thing.

So what is Ultima to you? Explain your view on why bounties on thieves are not Ultima.

I explained my opinion, why I think it is -- Ultima is about role-playing.

 

Bounties on thieves, sure why not ? But can just anyone jump on those ? That would be overkill...

I proposed that the thieves be flagged for the player or group of player they stole from (if caught by a player or a NPC) for quite a while, actually I'd support until the offended player gets something back.

If a player is unable to catch a thief then they could themselves post a bounty hunter job to be fulfilled by a player (under certain conditions, like reports from other players), then that thief would be flagged to many bounty hunters but not to everyone. If we keep in the line of roleplay, then not everyone is aware this person is a thief, and they could also use a disguise kit if you want to remain ultima and noone would even know it was them.

Logically, then the thief could make errors that make them vulnerable and the flag could pop on quietly.

There is ALOT of nuance to be and Ultima and roleplay... sure admire your analysis skills, but you're asking for the moon, and we cannot reach it without outside help

*cough*

 

I also wonder, everyday, how everyone forgot about the thieves guild and not the half-baked concept that was put in ultima unfinished online...

The real purpose of a thieves guild is to make sure thieves don't steal from each other, there is honor among thieves, not chaos.

True roleplaying automatically creates solutions that allow for better moderation, its an art, not a job.

 

This I moved to the top to say Thank You for taking the time to point out your view and ask for a discussion as most don't want that. I will explain my view on Ultima at the end.

The said that they wouldn't force it by saying consensual PVP. You are pushing me into PVP because I was able to get away from the guards. But the guards in that town should always be after me till I pay for that crime. Each and every time I enter it. If I sneak back in and steal more and more items it should spread to other towns that I'm a thief and those towns should start hunting me when I enter them. This goes into the whole SPO/FO modes as what happens when I'm in those modes? Nothing as nobody can attack me for my crimes. Or if I am in those modes I could just go stealing rampage while nude and look they get some of what I stole or I could have traded it off to a alt or someone else and the loot is safe then your bounty is pointless.

I support role-playing and am not against a bounty system if that system is in place with some limits. When your being hunted for a bounty all items are protected except those that were stolen as they poof as in return to the owner those items that you keep are not on your body but held till you pay a fee. But that would involve more coding then they want to put into place. But to say out and out that opps you drag an item into your inventory you were trying to use to see if it had interaction now your flagged as PVP and can loss your items is just silly. Look at the books/papers and other things around a town. Now think of a new player dragging those into his inventory to read them, no way to put them back and sees this pvp warning but thinks towns are safe. Boom dead and he doesn't like it. This system of boom thief no chance to put item back is an issue. But to solve this issue you need even more coding and they had said no the guards won't do anything.

The playstyle argument here is this interacting with an NPC or the world and being forced into PVP. If I want to read a book on a table yes I can interact with it via double clicking, but if I click and drag just a little it will take the item sometimes when not meaning to. Yes I have had this happen as I have hand tremors and double clicking I sometimes click and drag. I don't play games to worry about someone stealing from me in a game. I play games to escape reality. I didn't mention my issues for an excuse of for you to feel sorry but to point out not everyone is a health perfect person and some of us have limits that it is hard to overcome.

What Ultima means to me is exploring the world and exploring different things I can do and how the world will react to the things I do. Its about exploring the nature of the world and how people react to the things in it.

 

You are right, and a very solid framework was created that if everyone did their jobs, it would have been balanced and fair to everyone. Sadly, money.

I was always a bit critical of the way you communicated that opinion of yours, but worded like that I can relate, UO was very, very incomplete and true roleplay elements were traded for more addictive and more grindy mechanism to encourage RMT.

 

No, I disagree with this. I'd argue you're consenting to PvP by committing a crime; so its by definition consensual PvP. The original plan of the devs btw -- which I believe was discussed during Kickstarter -- was that certain control points would be PvP and could be taken over by guilds. Possibly, you could get around them by going a longer route on the map. This would have ended up affecting PvEers, because it would affect their gameplay. Strict PvEers complained about this and the devs softened, even though it was the original design goal. But a strict separation between the PvE and PvP world was never part of the plan.

But I agree everything else about the issue should be open to discussion...

 

Great post, but you guys are talking about two different things, you can very well get that playstyle (at least its planned) by playing friends or single online, but if you play multiplayer online, the bounty system should encompass thieves and murderers. But that would require a player seeing the theft, just like in ultima... maybe the bounty system on thieves could only kick in after 20 thefts in the same region, there could be a dynamic system etc... whereas murderers it would kick in after only a few murders.

What I'm afraid will happen is that we're just going to slap this nice social feature on the oracle, again, and that its going to lose roleplaying allure.

Wouldn't a virtuous player want to be able to defend his favorite blacksmith if he saw even the smallest theft ?

 

This

I really hope they respect the original vision...

 

So by playing an evil character I agree to PVP? Well wouldn't that limit my choices in the story line to only be "good"? I'm talking about stealing from an NPC not a player. It might be one way to explore the story as they said that they would have multiple ways of doing things. IE you could hand over papers saying you were someone else to bypass a quest or steal something to get a quest done quickly. Why should the interacting with NPC to advance my quests require me to PVP? Just like I don't like how a PVP zone is required for the quest line. Yes they added an optional way around it but to me that just is stupid as your trying to put people into the PVP areas by saying the quest says go here. This isn't "meaningful PVP" its luring sheep into a system they don't know about and might not want to be involved in as loss of items that take time to build up is a very real risk with very little reward.

The PVP control points I am ok with so long as they are not the only way. The problem here is that they have stated that no PVP for stealing is the way it will be. Not in addition to the other things we are talking about its the "only" way.

 

@syxs,

Its not even clear that the idea they have for bounty system would ever come in conflict with quests, though, even if they allowed stealing as a way to complete quests. The devs have said that you're not automatically flagged when you steal. If nobody sees you steal, nothing is triggered, except a loss of karma. But if someone sees you steal from them three times in a row, that's when the guards are called and the bounty is triggered. So it would be pretty simple to avoid a bounty I think. And if there were some quest item to steal, it might not even be subject to the same system.

 

No the guards will not be called and I have not seen where they said it is only if your seen. I have read only that LB said its PVP flagging when your stealing or no stealing. They have said they wouldn't be able to add enough guards to make it work. So please show me where they said its only if your seen and guards will come. This bounty system as far as I have read is just flagging a person for PVP no other items.

 

Its exactly what he said. I'll try to find it when I can, but I was also in a Discord conversation with him after the telethon. I don't remember whether he said it in the conversation or the telethon.

He didn't say what the guards would do, if anything. But he did say the NPC would call "GUARDS!" and that's when the bounty would trigger -- and that the NPC has to be present and see you do the stealing in order for that to trigger.

 

Of course, because that is in line with Ultima Online... its part of the original vision.

The instances being limited to a small number of NPCs is however very frustrating, massively populated instances is required to fulfill many game aspects.

 

That's a wee bit unnecessary. Actually, a lot unnecessary. I don't really understand where that sort of comment's even coming from, to be honest.

I've given an opinion. If you're as unhappy with the game as you make out, one would think you'd be agreeing with me, not making snippy comments.

Not to worry. I know what I meant, and enough people have chucked a like on it to show me there's something to it. Why you want to rally against it... no idea.

 

Not sure exactly how this went all the way down crazy lane, but I pretty much agree with Canterbury. At this point, major mechanics like thieving and justice should have been solidified via design ages ago.

The whole "Design as you go" method of this game pulls on my OCD strings.

 

Right! That's exactly what it feels like at times. It never feels like the game has been planned out and created with a plan in place. Stuff gets randomly added, radically changed, left, right and centre. It's discombobulating.

And I know many people accept the Jedi mind trick wave of the hand, "It's still being made..." but with the way it lurches all over the place, it feels like there's been no central plan being followed from the start of the project.

EDIT: And let me emphasise that word, feels. Feels doesn't mean something is actual. But what it does mean is that's the impression being given; that's how it feels to folk out here, trying to follow SotA, comment honestly, etc.

 

Indeed sometimes it feels like this, but try to taste it with a hint of salt, its being adapted from the original vision which is alot of data as you see from the amount of feedback on the boards.

Even double the team and they can't keep up with both internal priorities and our demands for balance.

Still I'm inclined to agree because it feels that the architect of the blueprint is missing, and I'm starting to think it might be yours truely...

Then again, it feels, merely feels this way