An honest opinion

Then let me be clear. I do not think that @Lord_Darkmoon has anything but the greatest hope for the success of Shroud of the Avatar and would never actively pursue its demise.

 

Yes

 

I would never want the demise of this game. When it was announced I was so excited about it and about the interesting approach that I want to play this game and enjoy the hell out of it!
I just fear that the development of the game moves away from what was announced into a direction I won't enjoy.

But even if this would be that case and it would be said outright and honestly then it would be ok - of course I would be disappointed but at least I would know it - and I would move on and wish the game and the fans of the new design all the best.

 

you're still depressing the hell out of me

 

Seems like you have some fears.
Ive attempted to shed some light on game development process for you in your quest thread. My suggestion would be to look into how other indie games are made. The process at which each element/system was put in and fleshed out and you will start to get a better picture of why they are working (focusing) on what they are. And of course read all the hangouts/announcments/quarterly notes/ext.

Imagine it like building a Car. First you need the frame, then you can start to build the engine. They bought a pre assembled simple engine, but we want a hot rod modded out one, so gotta do alot of tweaks and additions to just the engine itself. Then test the engine and make sure it runs right, maybe have to get more parts, replace some things, but dam looks like the store is sold out of a part we need (unity 5.3>5.4) so now we gotta wait on that. So continue to make adjustments while waiting for the part.

Things like combat/economy/loot tables/pvp/housing/server structure/crafting are all the "engine" parts that you want to run really well.

You dont add all the things that make it super flashy and pretty until your finished building it. Putting on that candy paint job, stereo, gps, tv screens and the works come after. Or else its just pretty on the outside, but runs really baddly (low fps/crashing).

Things like Art assets/textures/complex and fluid transisional animations/complex AI scripting (following you, leading you, hiding, finding you, traveling, interacting with other AI)/complex quest scripting, are those flashy things that make a car look great and make it feel good to drive. But dont actually effect how it runs.

Im not sure if you will actualy read this, but I hope it helps you understand the process if even a little.

I have faith Port knows what needs to be worked on, when it needs to be worked on. I also have faith that Port will deliver that Shiny Hot Rod.

 

Thank you, I busted up laughing in a jolly and cheerful way. I mean you the best, good Sir. Your passion for the experience you want the game to be is fuel for its existence.

Software development (and I suppose you could call this an enterprise-class service at that) usually seems this way. Teams might be working intensely on quest mechanics, dynamic NPC behaviors, environmental responsiveness, or what have you, but might not have anything that is ready to be integrated with the current application for 6-8 months at a time. Meanwhile, it might be trivial to produce a new sofa, a summonable pet, or a variation of an existing emote. The onlookers just see 20 different ways to puke enter the add on store, and see no changes in areas of the product they deem mission critical (and rightly so!), and then assume the whole development team is uninterested in the milestones they expect to see. Alternatively, it could be that the work on all this add on store stuff also began 4 months ago, and were seeing the continued waves of all that work being released. Craftwork takes its own time and is on its own schedule - real life craftwork, not talking about in-game . There are many books written which attempt to explain this subject, but theyre probably hideously boring to read unless you are fascinated with how engineering teams work and are managed.

Im not really taking anyone's side here - I too want the game world to get richer in experiences and content. I think we all need to let go of the whole data-persistance-as-live-product concept, and give progress criticisms on the half or quarter year range. Patience, it wont be a LB product without rich content .

 

You both make a ton of good points in terms of things to be aware of with respect to the process of game making (or making generally) and especially pointing out that even though work might be done, it isn't being implemented for some particular reason.

I should also say that I am pretty much in agreement with what the OP is asking for here. I've seen the same quote used in various threads where people are expressing frustrated with the game.

That quote got me all excited too thinking about all the possibilities! But we must remember that those quotes (from the kickstarter I'm assuming) are intentions for the final product... Not the pre-release.

To be sure, there is some wondering and even anxiety as to whether or not all my hopes for this game will be realized. However I feel it would be counterproductive to dwell on my disappointments along the way.

The future of this game depends on more people accreting to the project, and if all people see at a first glance is rants and poor reviews that are based on unreasonable expectations (for this stage of the project) then they will be less likely to contribute, and more likely to be disappointed if they do contribute because they will have inherited those same unreasonable expectations.

That all being said, I think some improvements could be made in connecting new players to the project. For example, making a sticky in the new player forum with a list of all the updates, release notes and patch notes in chronological order.

That way newcomers could get a better feel for where they are in the process, and what to expect in the future.

Also plainly explaining that an action meant to balance something in one area could unintentionally throw something else off in the meantime. It sucks but every backer is taking a risk that their playstyle may be nerfed in some way or that game dynamics change in a way that makes some past efforts less fruitful.

But again, that's all part of the process.

 

Lets get right to the point , when the game went persistent , we had almost 4 groups of people playing together and i think 75+ people in teamspeak . Than they killed groups , and a few people stopped playing or playing as much , than they killed tameing and more people slowed down playing , than they killed the market . Yet more people stopped playing . There were people taking vacation from work to play the game . As of the last 2 nights , i watched 2 movies in the first time in over a month . I know the game isnt finished , keep using that excuse , and i have had detailed math involved discussions about the add on store . which came down to " they have no choice but to work the add on store as there is not an optional monthly subscription yet . Nothing is free and everyone still has to pay bills . yes richard is a millionair but why should he use his own money to make what i was hoping to be the best game ever as currently UO holds that title . Anyways after all that where to go now . 2 choices One keep playing and stop crying or Two stop playing and go do something else .

 

If you are still playing at this point there's some things you have to accept. If this is being done by a small development team, that's your first warning sign. Things are going to move slowly. Especially considering that they have to devote some of those resources to keeping the cash shop interesting so we can keep funding their development.

I started playing after the final wipe, this game is far from done there's no doubt. So I try to make suggestions here and there when I see something that doesn't feel right or work right. My hope is that they read my posts and then we wait and see.

Right now, you could (should) call this game Store of the Avatar: Forsaken Values. The only thing that feels fleshed out are the store options. Then you log in and see everything is pretty lacking. The only thing I feel is doing anything unique and exciting right now is the combat deck. The random draws/combo system I think is a pretty good idea.

Anyways, with a lot of constructive criticism and some time, the hope is that it will get the point where we love it. I definitely feel the OPs frustration too. As a LONG time Ultima fan of course I want this to be great and when it's not I hurt a little bit inside.

 

Sorry, man, didn't intend to make you have to do that. I know you're a long time backer/poster and that you, too, have the greatest hope for the game. It's more about posterity. When someone comes along later and reads that, and the entirety of a lot of the posts here and on something like Reddit, they get a bad impression. And we all want this game to succeed and do well.

I got your meaning about in general how people seem to actively pursue the demise of games. Since it's the internet, I just put on a tin foil hat (not), and think that it's a competitor inserting himself in the discussion hoping to steer people away from a game. That's just me being silly.

Again, apologies.

 

This most ironic statement of the day.

 

Exactly, I have been around these forums for years now, and it really is the exact same thing over and over with the Op. I honestly do not know why these threads do not get deleted right away. They serve absolutely no purpose for the health of the game. All this stuff does is to make the new folks think this game has no worth or is dying before it even gets a life.
At some point I would think the Op would say enough is enough and just stop. I am not being mean nor am I trolling, I just think that the same argument and complaints over and over again is enough. Take a break from the forums for say 6 months and come back and see if it is more to your liking. Honestly it seems more like someone throwing a non stop temper tantrum for the past few years. And if me saying this is something I can get in trouble for saying, then I might ask why can he then be able to set and bash this game over and over again, and not get in trouble for that.

We all have our likes and dislikes, but stomping our feet at every turn does not make things happen any faster. If anything is makes you look like a spoiled brat who has to have his way or else. NOT referring to the OP. I think Lord DArkmoon you have rode this negative train long enough. It is time for you to get off now.

 

I disagree. I would think you might be right if it were not the same thing over the years now.

 

That's why I introduced the idea of the 'Negativity Bin', so that the moderators would have somewhere to move these recurring and pointless posts, without seeming like facists, and all the while making a read-between-the-lines statement about which subjects are long tired and no longer are needed to be discussed on a daily basis in general discussion.

However, staff said that it wouldn't happen for 'obvious reasons' which aren't all that obvious to me, but I didn't ask for any elaboration. I still think it would be healthier to put the poison into a bottle than spreading it all over the table where we eat. All the people who wanted to could still pop the cork and have a whiff once in a while that way.

 

Your opinion is important @Lord_Darkmoon. If the devs don't listen to people like you then the only people giving high praise to this game in the coming years will be those in the Garriot cult.

 

Maybe this is an indication that it is due time for the features I ask for to finally be shown?

Also you really want that only positive things are posted here? Would this give the right impression of this game? Everything is great? Everything is as it should be? Everything works as intended? You ask for opinions to be left out of this board and just leave those things in that that make the game look like it is perfect.

 

Woah pretty early for bullying guys.

 

Well if it helps, Lord British did post on this subject the first big time this topic came up. What more can they really say besides, "we know, and it will come." I guess they could admit it'll be slower than we would all like it, but that is obvious, we all want the game now of course.

"Fear not, solo player remains important.
While we generally have forward progress going on many fronts, it is common for one suite of features to feel dominant for months at a time, while we solve various areas of major issues. These lats and next couple months that will be combat, right behind that will be finishing out the crafting, finally that last to come online will be the full story. The story, which will be most essential for bringing the solo player (online or offline) to prominence, comes last for two reasons. First, it must all be resolved somewhat concurrently. Also, we don't want to expose it much before you play it, as it will be fun mostly the first time. Systematized activities like crafting and combat, will get "better with age", the story based experience, while it does have branches and replay worthy activities, we still wish to held back as long as possible.

We are not strictly speaking making an MMO... at least not like previous ones. We are not strickty speaking making a traditional solo player game... at least not like previous ones. We are making Shroud of the Avatar. My prediction is that most people will play in the default multi-player mode, as I don't think it will interfere with your feeling special which usually requires a solo player game. However, until its playable, taking "sides" is moot. We will know when we get there! But I remain a believer that we are building a NEW game type that IS a strong intersection between solo and multi-player. It will take some massaging to get it perfected. It will change over time, often based on your feedback.

We are developing in the open, and with all of you playing and commenting along the way, so we better insure we make a game you will all like!

- Lord British"

 

The problem is that RG in the last Telethon said the he has done the love quest several times and that it is great. He also said that people who let the girl at Solace bridge die can't take it back because they let her die and that's the moral system. Both of these statements show he really does not understand the sorry state of the quests and story in SOTA.

 

Maybe I wouldn't have posted about the quests because of what RG saif IF the quests would show real consequences and IF we would not have learned about the fact that there can't be any consequences to quests in scenes with player houses.
Now the sentences "The story, which will be most essential for bringing the solo player (online or offline) to prominence" and "My prediction is that most people will play in the default multi-player mode, as I don't think it will interfere with your feeling special which usually requires a solo player game" are questionable. Because how can you feel special when nothing you do does have a consequence? How can the story be essential when there are no real consequences to the choices and quests?