Archery: Make it worth while

I'm hoping they put in good balancing to ensure that archery is a useful skill to have for us 'ranger' types.

I know it's only pre-alpha combat at the moment, but I'm concerned ranged spells like Fireball etc will make archery redundant.

Hopefully they will put in place the use of reagents for spells which would help balance out the fact that arrows are consumed when using archery.

 

Reagents have always been planned for spells. It's one of those things they've talked about very early on but then haven't said much on the subject since.

For most common issues I have faith that the devs are quite aware of the problems but since it's been brought up.. archery is one of those issues that developers seem to have a hard time with.

I think we all know why archery is difficult to balance. If it's too powerful then there's little risk. You just start off at range and the mob is dead before it gets to you. So one approach I've seen is to make it so that on average you can get an enemy down to maybe 1/2 health and then you have to engage in melee.

Unfortunately, ranger/archer classes are often not as good in melee to compensate for the damage they do with the bow.. therein lies another problem.. a lot of enemies are balanced to melee with fighters.. etc etc.. I think most of us know how it goes. Archers often get the shaft as it were.

It will be interesting to see how they deal with it in a classless system. I would like to see a little complexity here in part because it would be cool and refreshing to see someone do something new.. and in part because I think a more complex system is probably the best way to balance archery.

Choice of bow and choice of arrow (more specifically arrow head) should be important. If you're enemy is geared up in full plate then a standard longbow with wide tipped arrows for slashing probably isn't going to be very effective. Where as that combo might be ideal for say.. something soft and squishy.

Personally I've always wanted to see some sort of close range bow combat ala Legolas style. I can envision a specially made reinforced bow with blades on either end.. you wouldn't want to stop block with it if you had a choice but you could do sweeps and slashes.

Also a consideration is effort towards mastery of ranged and melee combat. It's probably likely they will make it difficult to specialize in both

I seem to recall designing a non-magical archer prestige class for NWN to compete with the arcane archer. Had a nice rapid fire option. I forget the particulars.

 

Cool, brilliant answer Bowen. Thank for the thoughtful response.

I think balancing archery by players with shields/heavy armor having good resistance would make sense, so only 'high level' archers could do the 'aimed shots' to find the gaps in the armor/shield.

Shield wall is cool, where multiple players combine a special defence using their shields.

 

I haven't looked at the skill trees in awhile but I remember a short conversation with Starr about the .. dig in? shield skill.. where I suggested it could be used in unison with other players to form a sort of perimeter defense. I'm all for the strategic use of skills between allies.

Ah I can see it now.. a shield wall is marching towards you.. aimed shot FOOT.. *snicker*

I've always leaned towards rangers for whatever particular reason so I'm keenly interested in how all related skills play out.

 

We'll have to team up at some point for an adventure, I'm hoping to become a very high level archer and also wanting to craft some very fine bows / arrows. Hope to make 'poisoned arrows' by having alchemy as my 2nd crafting focus.

 

Perhaps we shall. Though I won't be able to play online very much until about 6 months after launch. *gives his Verizon 'jetpack' the evil eye* I'm barely able to poke my nose into the alphas. Ah how I long for the days of DSL. Data limits royally bite.

 

Couldn't resist

 

Yeah my situation is a bit weird. Throw in a little misinformation and the result is a wireless connection with a 2 year contract as the only option to stay online. It wouldn't be so bad if a certain other family member didn't use literally x10 the bandwidth I do just reading news sites. *sigh*

Anyway..

 

@Bowen,

What about different missile weapons having different ranges...

I haven't tried out bows yet in the game, but I've tried fireballs and the range of monsters you can target is limited.

 

Certainly. Different bow designs produce different power which means differences in potential range. The same can be said of arrows. High quality arrows can vary in both range and accuracy.

Now I doubt we'll see a lot of variance in range between standard bows. They probably just wouldn't want to get that detailed.. at least not for EP1. That's fine.. but we can still have some potential with more common bows. Longbows vs short bows vs compound bows.

A bowman should be able to do simple fletching if need be.. but crude arrows wouldn't fly as far or be as accurate. Also they could break if the bow is too powerful. (I'm thinking a crude arrow is a stick you pick up and fletch on the fly.. wouldn't hold up to a compound bow).

Speaking of compound bows we should definitely have them. Too many avatars at least know what they are and if New Britannia didn't have them then an avatar who was into bow hunting would surely figure out how to build them. Moving on..

Then of course you have crossbows. High powered and great for piercing armor but probably not so great for long range sniping.

The crafting quality of bows could also play a factor. A critical success might improve the range let's say.

In terms of combat mechanics I would probably define an 'effective range' based on bow specs, archer's skill and arrow specs and use it as a to-hit modifier. (Assuming the target doesn't move). Once outside effective range the arrow/bolt starts to fall off, be affected by the wind and air resistance etc. So less accurate, less damage.

Oooo something else to consider when balancing all ranged combat is projectile speed. This you can calculate based on arrow quality and weapon power. Simple fletching might mean a slower arrow while more advanced designs could give you that lovely spin that improved accuracy (and I'm assuming speed)

In terms of balancing with magic projectiles I think it comes down to speed vs power mainly.

 

To continue my ramblings.. further thoughts on arrows.

3 styles of fletching.. we'll just say crude, normal and superior.

Following my thoughts of quick & dirty low quality fletching from above.. crude is what you throw together out in the wilds when you've run out of good arrows and need something in an emergency until you can refill your quiver with something decent. Fletching on an arrow should have a small effect on range but a larger affect on accuracy.

The shaft can follow the same basic standards. I'm sticking to 3s here for sake of simplicity. Crude is the straightest stick you can find laying on the ground. Superior is what you save for compound bows as anything else could shatter when fired. I mention the idea of weaker arrow shafts shattering with compound bows in part to keep the cost of usage high. My thinking here is this type of bow is of avatar influence. The greater range and damage comes at the cost of requiring superior materials for the arrows.

3 styles of arrowhead.. now to remember that physical damage in SotA is simple physical damage. There is no slash, pierce and concussion. So while there may be a variety of arrowheads designed for specific damage types the real difference is in effective use.

The broad, slashing head would do more damage but has less penetrating power because the force of impact is spread out. The extra weight could also mean a slight reduction in range and/or slower velocity. Though really the difference is probably negligible.

The standard piercing head would do less damage but it's more focused so there's greater penetrating power when going up against heavier armors or tough hides.

My thinking is largely to provide strategic choices for the serious archer. In truth, if you just want to be a decent shot so that you're not helpless at long range or just to get a few hits in than a standard bow and arrows should suit you just fine but a specialist in any field should have options that make them more effective.

The 3rd type of arrowhead I'm thinking should be utility. I've seen systems with blunts that do concussion damage but thinking about it what good would that do? Unless you want to knock someone unconscious at range I don't see a lot of use for it here. There is some precedence for special types of arrows though. One of my personal favorites would be a tracer. (Not sure why I just find them cool). You shoot it and it lights up for awhile allowing you to see dark areas at distance.. or point things out to allies.. use as a signal flare etc.

You could make a few different types of utility arrows in conjunction with alchemy. A flash bomb comes to mind as does your typical flaming arrow. These would mostly all be limited range/accuracy arrows.

Now we come to magic arrows/bolts.

I'm something of a purist I suppose and I just have little interest in magic ammo. Bows are awesome enough that they don't need tricks and flashy fx to be cool.. but in the Ultimas we had several interesting options. The standard magic arrow/bolts were just regular ammo that was then enchanted. They did a little extra damage but that was it. On thinking about it I have no reservations here in that you always have to replace your arrows. It costs money to enchant the darn things so if you're paying for it constantly than why the heck not?

Ultimas also had Serpentine arrows which were magically poisoned. Burst arrows which exploded into additional arrows in all directions on impact.. cool but very indiscriminate. You could also make sleep arrows. hmm am I missing anything?

Now personally I wouldn't do Ultima's burst arrows. As cool as they are if they were used I'd think they'd have to be considered a friendly fire weapon. As for the others mentioned you can get the same affect by applying alchemy solutions which is another very cool but separate subject.

A quick nod to magic bows and crossbows. I wouldn't do anything terribly fancy. Buffs to existing stats.. improved power, skill bonus for range/accuracy. I am of the mind that the weapon and the ammo maintain separate, independent enchantments as they are not physically bound to each other. Also I think it's a good approach for balance reasons.

I definitely do NOT want to see unlimited ammo enchantments.. and any such ammo produced by such a thing should be inferior to crafted ammo.

Ok.. I'm done.. I think.. maybe.. for now.

 

Charm arrows would make sense, if such a spell were in the game

Arrow capacity enchantments might be able to work fine on bows as long as they have charges on them, and have to be re-charged. You could have a bow that shoots fire arrows or lightning arrows or ice arrows, but depletes its charges. We already have spells like Fire Arrow, how about shooting it through an enchanted bow? Not necessarily suggesting that, just saying that it wouldn't create balance problems.

 

They should bring back Magic Arrows, Poison Arrows, etc, if it was amazing in an old game why downgrade?

 

I can't picture firing a bow with plate mail armor on but that's just me.

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I don't know how charmed I would be with someone who just put an arrow in me. Maybe if I were a masochist or something. I think most magical fx on arrows can be achieved through alchemy but I don't see a lot of demand for passive enchantments.

Elemental damage arrows are pretty standard fair I suppose.. but I have to wonder how much is really needed. How many opponents for examples are there going to be that non-magical damage is ineffective against? On the other hand ammo should be able to take the same basic damage enchantments as any other weapon. Just having it done for every batch of arrows could get costly.

 

@Bowen,

I'm thinking of something like Cupid's arrows. Though, obviously, they wouldn't create some love spell, because that wouldn't really be a meaningful tool for players in the game; but they'd do the equivalent.

Btw, if more roguish skills were ever added to the game, http://thief.wikia.com/wiki/Rope_Arrow

 

OooOOOoo Rope Arrow!
I do hope the Rouges get something more than just being annoying pickpockets in our game...
The Very Misunderstood Skills of the Rouge
Arrows + Rouge + Rope = Fun!
~Time Lord~

 

Unfortunately I think that's well beyond the scope of EP1. I'm not holding my breath for any kind of advanced roguish abilities though I'm a huge fan myself. Should put that on the list of features to promote for EP2 starting whenever they start talking about it. (Really should start writing this stuff down).

I grew up on a lot of the early Sierra games which included Quest for Glory with some fun thieving type stuff. Ah fond memories.

So I have remembered one of the ideas from my NWN archer class.. was a little feature called Prepared Shot. Which is something I'd really like to see in SotA (or something similar). The idea was that the longer you took to aim your shot the more accurate it would be (and more damaging). You could spend your entire round on one shot that would do (on average) the same total damage as however many shots you would've taken otherwise.. but with a might higher chance to hit.

Naturally you couldn't move or the shot would be ruined.

 

@Bowen,

What do you think of how archery worked in Skyrim, with the Eagle Eye and Steady Hand skills

 

Re. enchanted arrows, poison arrows etc: I think they must have these in the game... to be a successful 'successor' to the Ultima games I feel it is a requirement.