As Suggestion for Beta - PvP / No PvP

I have a suggestion for Beta that I would like to propose.

Could we please have the beta (or alpha even) split for a week each:

• One week full PvP, full loot, no safe zones, excepting cities.
• One week with PvE in a WoW-like fashion.
• One week with a combination of the two based on feedback from the first two weeks.

After the three weeks of testing, could we possibly take a poll to determine what people thought of each model? I don't believe it would be much of an imposition to ask folks to fill out a 10 question survey with each question rated from 1 to 5 (hate to love) or whatever.

Maybe I'm wrong, but this might be helpful to determining a path to the PvP model that will be best for the most.

"The needs of the many outweight the needs of the few, or the one."

I'm all quoty this week!

 

That requires the devs to code rules/logic for all the scenarios. And most of the objections I've seen opposed to full PvP with full loot relate to griefing. Griefers could behave one week in PvP and then suggest since no one misbehaved for one week in beta that everyone must be subject to that forever in the live game.

 

Agreed, don't see the point or need for this. Too much other work needs to be done.

 

The community seems to be split, quite fiercely on the issue. Forcing all players into one system that inevitably will make one side (or the other) unhappy and cannot be a sensible decision.

If there is no opportunity for PvP with full loot, then some will be unhappy. If people who don't want PvP and forced into it, they will be unhappy.

The only sensible solution seems to be to allow full loot with PvP for flagged players and allowing people to avoid this by not flagging themselves. Everyone is happy (save perhaps for griefers).

I'm not sure why some insist that everyone must be forced into anyone can be attacked at all times. This literally only caters to griefers. I will not play such a game. And griefers will drive all other players out. Ultima Online was forced to abandon this to maintain their subscribers and no other MMO in history ever tried recreating this model because most players want nothing to do with it.

In expressing my opinion that I don't want to be forced into something I don't want, I have been subject to personal attacks. If anything, the behavior on this forum has demonstrated those pushing for this system actively want to punish and grief other players.

There are other ways of establishing tension and meaningful consequences in the game.

 

Moving thread to PvP section.

 

Other than the "feedback" portion (which I am pretty confident the devs are aware, considering these forums), is the "combination of the two" not actually how the game is going to be running from the get-go ?

The devs will be able to watch how many users participate in the PvP side of the game, and how many participate in the non-PvP from their side, and adjust this accordingly.

Perhaps by increasing the ingredient/farming reward of non-PvP entering specialty PvP action hexes, or increasing the reward for completing missions which impose a PvP requirement. Things they have mentioned already as incentives.

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There will *never* be an "everyone on one side or the other" in this game, one simply needs to look at the forums to see how diametrically opposed many of us are on this issue.

 

Agreed. And, with selective multiplayer, all of this testing can/could be done concurrently.

 

I don't want any of this. I want to see what they actually have planned for PvP.

 

Do you want to be attackable to spawn at all times? Or is the spawn going to have to play by the rules and ask you if it wants to attack you when you go into it's dungeon? Is the spawn going to be able to loot you when it defeats you? Or does all your stuff come with your ghost and in your pack when you get rezzed? If your out mining, fishing, or gathering are there EVER going to be monsters that just run up out of nowhere and kill you and loot you?
Is the spawn greifing you when it attacks you when you enter it's dungeon? Probably not, because the AI is so stupid and slow that you get plenty of time to run and heal. Plus its too stupid to realize that you got valuable loot on you to pluck it off your corpse.
You and many others state that you dont want to be forced into being griefed. What is greif though? Is it ONLY when another player kills you, takes your stuff, or stops you from progressing in the game? Is that the ONLY time you experience greif??? If a monster happens to kill you because you lagged out its not greif?
The problem I see with this, "no greifing" argument, is that your either going to accept the fact that SOMETHING is going to be forced upon you that you don't like, or you might as well just create a game where every character is totally invincible and there is NO chance of losing any item ever. A game where every quest is all about you slaying every daemon without any worry of being killed and you rack up the loot, gold, and treasures. No tricks, no surprises, just more fame, karma, gold, and loot for you and you always know what to expect. Im sure this kind of thing is fun. For me it would be. But for a limited time only. Thats why sometimes I enjoy using cheat codes in a game.
So you don't want players to bring you these "surprises" you dont want them to be the daemon in the dungeon or in the woods. Fair enough..... so do you want the spawn to do it instead? If so, there had better be some more advanced AI in this spawn than UO had if your answer is yes. Otherwise, if you are totally unwilling to play in a game where SOMETHING forces grief on you then we can go right ahead and stick with the level of AI that UO had. I dont think getting killed by spawn is any funner than being PK'd. Though, I welcome PK's into my game, just as much as I welcomed the developers of UO to put lich lords and dragons around all the loot in the dungeons. I dont EVER want ANY of these things to kill me and loot me though. It doesnt mean I dont want them in my game.
Now, im not saying that its wrong or throwing any personal insults at the people who want a game where no players can attack you, and not even the spawn is really able to do anything to you. If thats what you want thats what you want and im not going to change it. But it is what it is.
Ive been very cool with everyone in discussing the PvP topic, I dont feel like ive stirred up too much trouble... But for the first time im going to say that yes... I DO insist that you all stay with me in a world thats just like old school UO. Getting pk'd and looted is a real drag, I know, I feel the same. But theres just so much more immersion to that style of play. Feel free to insist that I stay in the trammel world with consensual duels/arenas(I consider felucca a consensual arena). Feel free to try and convince me to play in the trammel themed environment... Who knows, maybe you'll change me. But let me pick at your brain too please! >=-P

 

Mobs in a game only exist in certain areas. In UO, they didn't loot your corpse and steal all your items. Mobs were balanced in difficulty level so that a player isn't completely overwhelmed and out of their league.

At launch, in UO I created my character on day 1 and started working as a tailor to save gold to buy some basic armor and a sword. Within a minute of leaving town, I was attacked by a group of PKers who camped just outside town and attacked anyone who left on their own. They killed me instantly and stole all my belongings.

So I went back to being a tailor until I could afford another suit of armor and a weapon, only to be killed immediately by PKers again.

The only safe way to leave town was with a rune to another safe spot, or with the protection of a guild in a group (since PKers weren't interested in fair combat against another group).

I literally couldn't experience most of what the game had to offer unless I had a guild to protect me. Anytime I left town solo, I was killed and lost everything. Then I'm forced to grind on a craft before I can even attempt to play again. I don't see how that is fun or enjoyable for anyone other than griefers camping spots and killing new players with a group. I can tell you that behavior is what drives away new players from ever getting into the game and will quickly destroy the community so the game doesn't have a future.

A game needs to hook new players, not drive them away.

 

It hooked me. =P
And it hooked all those griefers that griefed you.

 

Those that get in early, level, get gear and group with other griefers will be set then.

And all new players are screwed then. See how well that works for maintaining a community of players in the long run. Again, even UO had to abandon this because it drove away players and no MMO in history has tried recreating this because the majority of players want nothing to do with it.

 

Problem is, a poll on the forums will NEVER be representative of the entire game's population. It's a very small sample of even the backers currently.

And yeah, I think the devs have more important tasks they should be doing and I'd like to hear what their ideas are first.

 

Ive always come in late. Stealth skill worked wonders for me! Forming alliances with other players helped out as well. They helped guard me. They werent around 24/7 which allowed some time where I had to be more cautious and where at times I would get pwnt and looted. Wasnt fun.. But overall made the game more immersive for me. My only way of succeeding in the game ever was communicating and talking to other players. Even in trammel. Because the spawns would always wack me so I had to get advice from other players. But in old school UO it was extra fun not knowing who you can trust. At some point you had to "take the chance" and walk outside town with someone you were talking to. Sure they might wack me and grab a couple hundred to a thousand gold worth of loot. But thats how I like my game as of right now.

I better be off to work.... ill chat with yall later.. have a good one.

 

Just to remind everyone, this is just a suggestion that I was tossing around in my head and figured I'd share.

I'm certain it has holes in it, but my basic premise is that it might be a good idea to test the actual level of commitment to each method of play by, you know, actually playing in each one.

Alpha or Beta would be good times to check this out as they could test other issues while also testing the 'slider-type-thingie' by moving it to each end of the spectrum for a full week.

@Phredicon, you are absolutely right, but I was more thinking of an exit poll when you logged off at the end of the beta period. More will play the beta than will ever post on the forums, so they could hit them up on the way out the door so to speak.

Again, just an idea, not for or against anything....

 

Basically the things you're talking about testing aren't the difficult, interesting, or important parts of the PvP system. It's not "how" that matters, it's "why."

If "why" is a fight over land or territory, does this relate to factions or guilds? Am I blocked from progress wearing the wrong color? Are there somehow back doors? Basically the who map is entirely different if hexes get owned and are defended by different kingdoms of some sort. And this matters regardless of looting rules. Regardless for how PvP works. Even if I'm completely in SPO no PvP ever mode, I'm still somehow going to be bound by territory rules.

I don't actually think they'll weave a karma system in with PvP. But if they do, this is a massive undertaking. This was messy in UO and L2 and really no one's followed this path. It wasn't the game killer in L2 that it was in UO because innocents didn't drop loot. So there was no real incentive to be a criminal other than to hold a specific grinding spot. PvP was zero sum in UO (loot transfer), negative sum in L2 (xp loss and karma gain but no loot), and is negative sum in EvE (loot destruction). Fighting in L2 and EvE is about taking individual losses to secure territory for the team.

 

Bring back server wars!!!