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Discussion in 'Release 19 Feedback' started by Poor game design, Jun 26, 2015.

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  1. Poor game design

    Poor game design Avatar

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    I haven't tried books yet, but I'm guessing the functionality I desire is not implemented in this first pass.

    We need the ability to SIGN and DATE (using a sever generated time and date stamp) in our books.

    This would allow for so many interesting uses for paper, like (bills, loans, stocks, versions, etc...)

    We also need the ability to have several players sign and date something. Think "a Guild Charter" or "a financial agreement".

    It can all be enforced by the players in-game. No other systems are needed. We just need the ability to capture and store the information in a secure way that can not be forged.
     
  2. Chaox

    Chaox Portalarian Emeritus

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    Jira entered SOTA-16948 "Add date created to custom book creation information" the rest is under general discussion as I mentioned this to Joaquin and Starr.
     
  3. Jatvardur

    Jatvardur Avatar

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    It would be a nice addition to have a timestamp although not necessary. I've been talking about these ideas for ages and it would be great to finally get some traction. Honestly, books are one of my most sought after features.... maybe #2 behind pots. :)


    I also provided some feedback on books:
    https://www.shroudoftheavatar.com/forum/index.php?threads/books-with-player-made-content.33149/
     
  4. Poor game design

    Poor game design Avatar

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    Having the ability to sign books or other paper (maybe on a signature line) is important to historical record keeping and authenticity.

    All of this being something that is unable to be forged in any way is hugely important. It would allow book keeping for financial transactions as well as many other historical tracking mechanics that simply wouldn't be there if we couldn't A) know without a doubt that the signature of say "Winfield" was indeed the Winfield from Pax Lair and no other person. And B) that the time and date of the signature is correct and can not be changed in any way.

    This would allow Winfield to sign a bank note or show that his version of a book was the original and therefore more important historically than someone elses "copy".
     
  5. Bowen Bloodgood

    Bowen Bloodgood Avatar

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    economic ideas aside.. awhile back we talked about players being able to sign books. Having an author or dev sign a book could instantly make it a rare collectors item.
     
  6. Jatvardur

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    A timestamp or a logical timestap (like an ID number or nonce), along with non-editability, will give a strong notion of non-forgery. I agree. It isn't completely necessary but it helps. I did cover this in my dev+ topic: https://www.shroudoftheavatar.com/forum/index.php?threads/r12-testing-books-as-contracts.16732/

    I spent a lot of time thinking on this. Both in terms of creating protocols and trying to eliminate attack vectors. I think the post is worth a read at least. ;-)

    As I mentioned in the general forum in reply: having strong non-forgery doesn't guarantee that a contract will complete, only that it is original. It will always be possible to renege on a deal. If you put in place an "infrastructure" as I've suggested for keeping track of the books (e.g. a public spreadsheet) then you can build in a higher level of trust and accountability which I think is more important than timestamps for strong non-forgery.


    BTW, once a book is published in-game your name shows as the item creator (I also mentioned this in my reply in the general forum). So we know without a doubt that I (or Winfield) signed a book. Given that I posted my picture publicly there is a notion of accountability too (I'm aware of the all attack vectors, they are pretty obvious much like econ 101 ;-) ).
     
  7. Jatvardur

    Jatvardur Avatar

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    Yep. The first confirmation we got was when I asked Richard about it on Twitter, so we knew it was coming. This was a while back.

    A timestamp also allows for rares. I recall you mentioned this before. I had quietly mentioned it to Winfield before that ( ;) ) but had hoped that no one else would click :p
     
  8. Poor game design

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    Yes, and that's great for "books" but not so great for "agreements". For example, what if you and I wanted to enter into an agreement where you gave me 100k for 1 month and in return expected me to give you 120k after 30 days?

    That's where signatures and time stamps become extremely important.
     
  9. Jatvardur

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    You are not being entirely clear when you say signatures. Are you talking about cross-signing the same document? I.e two people sign the same document? I agree that it gives an even stronger notion of non-forgery of a contract but it does not guarantee that a contract completes. In the real world you would sue for breach of contract, in SotA you'd have to smear / trash the other person's reputation. I still think public records and accountability are therefore more important; they build trust more so than signature or timestamps (which I still maintain are not that necessary).

    I re-iterate my suggestion of looking at my dev+ post. I covered protocols in depth. These concerns were dealt with....
     
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  10. Bowen Bloodgood

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    The only problem I have with going down that road from an RP standpoint is whether you have a signature or not.. it only works with both sides honor the agreement. So it's little more than record keeping. There isn't really any game mechanism that can enforce it.
     
  11. Jatvardur

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    Which is why there is a need for public records, i.e. a spreadsheet, but it looks like you agree with my statement in that regard.

    edit: you posted just after I did. I see you saw it!
     
  12. Poor game design

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    I'm simply saying that I want multiple people to have the ability to sign the same document (be it a book or paper or whatever).

    I'm saying that I want the ability to write contracts that multiple people can sign. And yes, you're absolutely correct, there would be no other way to enforce such a contract but to do what modern financial institutions due currently - impact people's financial reputation for future transactions.
     
  13. Jatvardur

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    I concur. Some sort of public rating system would be good too. I even suggested that on my guild site when I first created it.

    Someone like Lord Andernut has already been boosting his reputation by doing all the escrow work.
     
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  14. Poor game design

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    There doesn't need to be.

    If Pax Lair gives me 100k and I sign a contract with them saying I'll give them 120k a month later. Then I breach that contract with Pax Lair. They now have a record of it. Where's the record you might ask? The fact that I can not produce a document where PAX Lair agrees that I have given them 120k.

    But wait you say! Can't Pax Lair just lie about it and say that I didn't give them the money and that's why I don't have the document? But in fact they took their 120k AND still ruined my reputation? Sure they can...but when multiple people start showing up saying the same thing over and over again, who's going to borrow money from Pax Lair?

    Not to mention people (such as myself) would be able to record these transactions and post them to YouTube. :)

    So I see a system that would work without any further coding changes from the devs. All we need is paper, the ability to sign something with a unique signature that can't be forged, and a date and time stamp. The players can do all the rest.
     
  15. Bowen Bloodgood

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    A public rating system in the control of players would be too abusable. What's to stop anyone from trashing anyone else for the heck of it?
     
  16. Poor game design

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    Lord Andernut is a PERFECT example of why we don't need in-game systems to make this work.

    If the devs WANTED to make a more robust system I'd be in complete favor of doing that. I just don't think it's needed.
     
  17. Poor game design

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    Youtube and screen shots.

    But also word of mouth. Lord Andernut is doing this right now with real money.
     
  18. Bowen Bloodgood

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    All well and good.. but how many people would actually go that far? Or save their recipes?
     
  19. Poor game design

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    I can think of at least one.... He lives in a wizard tower.
     
  20. Jatvardur

    Jatvardur Avatar

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    Which is what I said in the General Forum in reply to you. :p We don't need books at all but they are nice to have.
     
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