Bow Testing - Xen ,Envy , Crossbow of Accuracy ,Crafted Bows and Crossbows

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Elrond, Feb 13, 2020.

  1. Numa

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    Theres a similar skill called Armor Weak Points in the subterfuge tree which increases the critical chance for all weapons. Could that be it?
     
  2. Barugon

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    Armor Weak Points applies to all weapons. Vital Points only applies to blades.
     
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  3. ErikRulez

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    True, this was the general formula Chris gave. I assume the vital points value would be set to zero if you are not using blades.
     
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  4. Aldo

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    So, to get this straight, since the item crit% on bows is 5%, then in the formula, C /100=.0005. Is that correct? If weak points is 9, then B=9/100 or .09. And if Dex _120, then A=120/20 or 6. This is means in the equation, (A+B+C) we have in this case, 6.0905. This is multiplied by 1+D/100 or 1+.46/100 = 1.0046. Finally 6.0905*1.0046 = 6.1185, the final critical chance. Essentially all of which is contributed by the Dexterity and item crit%. Seems to me that weak points, vital points and masterwork crit % are insignificant and can be ignored for all intents and purposes. The Crit Masterwork and the Armor weak points skill have essentially no contribution to Critical chance. Please tell me I am wrong!! Basically,the 120 Dexterity we assumed increased the item crit% by 1.1185. It would take another 120 skill (240 total) in Dex to increase the calculated crit % one point more. Increasing the Dex is our only choice to increase Crit hit chance. Best to ignore the masterwork completely and never waste a choice on critical chance.
     
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  5. Lord Tachys al`Fahn

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    I think your math is off in a few places.
    For the values of C and D, I am making the assumption that ()/100 and (D/100) are the operations turning the whole into a decimal percentage, thus I would read C as 5, not .05, and D as 46, not .46.
    The second place you are off is forgetting that the value of A (Dex/20) is also part of that ()/100 operation.

    So with your given values, 6, 9 and 5, I would read the first half of the equation as (6+9+5)/100=.2 or 20%.

    The second half of the equation, and the third place where your math goes awry, is the value of D and what it works out to. (1+(D/100) where d=46 would be 1.46, not 1.0046.

    Put it all together, and it SHOULD come out to: ((6+9+5)/100)*(1+(46/100)) = .2*1.46 = 0.292 or a 29.2% chance to crit.

    Then again, this is Dev math... and what we should get may not be what we are getting.
     
  6. Violet Ronso

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    This makes way more sense this way, it just is not explained well at all when you loot at the actual numbers, as an example D, which you point out to be 46, but when you get your 46 on the item stats, it is actually 46%, thus Aldo's math would not be too far off if we take things literally, but, with anything in this game, we should know not to take them too literally!
     
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  7. Aldo

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    As @Violet Ronso says the displayed masterwork is displayed as a percent. Thus, .46/100. Likewise the Crit on the item is shown as 5% or .05/100. Now I agree that what we see is not what we get and many, many times I have been thrown off by assuming these percentages don't always mean what they say. That said, when I masterwork my weapon to the highest level possible by master working and test out on my dummy, the expected critical hits NEVER happen at anything near 29% of the time as per your example @Lord Tachys al`Fahn . It is real close, however to the item crit chance. This is why I asked the OP what he thought about the crit chance, and stated that I thought the masterwork was an attempt in vain to improve it and thus wasted.

    Edit to add: The weak points amount is in fact listed as a percent too. I ignored that because it is listed as critical chance modifier, whatever that is. So I used the number 9 as a whole number. Even with the 100 times value of .09, the result in crit chance is essentially 0. I think that critical chance modifier may mean something else that what is used in the calculation, it just has to. Otherwise this stuff is absurd.
     
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2020
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  8. Barugon

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    Wow, how high is your Armor Weak Points? Mine is 120 and that only gives me 7.5%.
     
  9. Barugon

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    5% is 0.05 or 5/100, not 0.05/100.
     
  10. Lord Tachys al`Fahn

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    Well... Based on what @Elrond posted, assuming nothing in weak points or vital points, and assuming his other gear provides zero extra benefits aside from what bone armor provides, here's his breakdown, with the crit chance calculated the way I stated, compared to the observed data posted:
    [​IMG]

    As you can see, for every run it meets or exceeds the calculated chance, but we would need data in the hundreds of shots with each bow to show how far off the mark the calculation (as I stated it above) is.

    Take it for what it's worth?
     
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  11. Lord Tachys al`Fahn

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    180? ;) (guesstimate by gluteus extraction)
     
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  12. Spungwa

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    No idea if the crit chance % in the earlier posts are right.

    BUT

    My understanding is that when you finally have your crit chance % reported in /stats. That is actually the percentage that it adds to the to hit roll. Meaning for example.

    All other stuff, dex, dodge, damage avoidance etc let's say adds up to 100 for easy maths.
    If your crit chance % is 25% then
    On top of the 100 toll you had before it adds 25% of that as a crit roll. So 101 - 125 is a crit.
    So you are rolling for a number from 1 to 125, anything over 100 will be a critical hit.

    So you have 25/125 chance to crit. Meaning the number you see as 25% crit chance is actually a 25/125 = 1/5 = 20% real crit chance.

    Therefore the number you see as crit chance is a term in the equation, not the result of the equation.

    The critical chance percentage you see is actually in reality.

    Reported crit chance is the number between 0 and 1 for the percentage, ie 25% is 0.25.

    Real crit chance = reported crit chance / (reported crit chance + 1)

    Regards
    Spung
     
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  13. Violet Ronso

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    Ok, this math is actually headache material, and actually the kind of math I would expect from SOTA, but what the actual **** is this? so basically you add your percentage to crit as number of sides on your dice and if you land on one of those new numbers, you then get a crit? man Chris never ceases to amaze me in how complicated he wanted to make this, but I don't dislike it.
     
  14. Spungwa

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    Easy way to think of it

    If your reported crit chance is 1 in X then your real crit chance is 1 in x+1
    so

    10% reported crit chance = 1 in 10 so really 1 in 11
    20% reported crit chance = 1 in 5 so really 1 in 6
    33% reported crit chance = 1 in 3 so really 1 in 4

    The real take from this is that critical chance has diminishing returns. The more you raise it the less each percentage is worth in real terms.

    For comparison gaining 10% more reported crit chance
    Raise reported crit chance from 10% to 20%
    real gain = 1 in 11 to 1 in 6 ~ 9.1% to 16.7% = 7.6% real increase for the 10% you invested.

    Raise reported crit chance from 20% to 30$
    real gain = 1 in 6 to 3 in 13 ~ 16.7% to 23.1% = 6.4% real increase for the 10% you invested.

    Regards
    Spung
     
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2020
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  15. Violet Ronso

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    Yeah, this makes sense, just like how the "Weight" from avoidance and dodge works, it just makes things look bad, when your numbers mean entirely different things.
     
  16. Aldo

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    Excellent back up makes you think. I wonder if these critical hits are all due to the weapon or the weapon and something else? As far as plugging the data we are given into the formula for crit chance, I have to stand by my demo.
    If vital points is shown in the skill tree as 9%, and you plug .09 into the formula, then that is correct. What I don't know is if the 9% is listed wrong and should be 9. You have shown that this is probably the case. In this little excercise then, vital points is a bug as posted, as is the masterwork (posted as a percent, but should be a straight up number). Probably bugs that will never be fixed, and we all will be eternally confused.
     
  17. Aldo

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    Not that high. I am at 127 skill for 7.9. The tool tip shows 9.2 at skill 147
     
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  18. Lord Tachys al`Fahn

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    Well... I did (sort of) say I was pulling it out of my a$$...
     
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  19. Barugon

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    140 would be very expensive.
     
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  20. Aldo

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    Oh well, apologies to the OP. I did get off on this tangent based on all that data. Fried my brain, and worse got me second guessing what I have been doing all this time. Sooo just finished testing the whole gamut of halberds I have stored away. They have attributes all over the place. But to make a long story short, regardless of what the crit chance I have on all of them (and crit damage), they all tested the same on the dummy 100 to 200 attacks each in auto attack. There was NO significant difference in performance. Looks like I can either stop masterworking or just close my eyes to pick. Thanks for all the suggestions and explanations everyone. I was saving my EXP for episode two, but now I am going to put the old up arrow UP on dexterity till it all runs out.
     
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