can you believe this PC Games article about Shroud?

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Asari, Feb 25, 2019.

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  1. macnlos

    macnlos Avatar

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    If you are in charge... and you have people/lackeys around you... then you are the problem. Management 101.
     
  2. macnlos

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    This article is a summary. Is it good or bad? Doesn't matter. What this article does not do is move the ball forward in any measurable way.
     
    Last edited: Feb 25, 2019
  3. Lazlo

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    I had to check to make sure this wasn't a bumped thread form 2 or 3 years ago.
     
  4. Fionwyn Wyldemane

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    Oh joy another gloom and doom article. This is like the "Dewey Elected" headline when it was actually Truman that got elected. SOTA ain't dead yet.

    The author of the article presents facts skewed toward the negative. I don't find it objective, but rather just another propaganda piece to say how bad the game is. Only this hit piece is dressed as journalism rather than a Reddit rantfest. /shrug
     
    Last edited: Feb 25, 2019
  5. Shift

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    Whether you like it or not. There's a lot of truth in this article. Criticism even when it's negative its still valid.
     
  6. Woodchuck

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    I didn't know a lot of the history. I didn't know SoTA was primarily a last-ditch-effort to save Portalarium. I thought it had pure and innocent beginnings. -_-

    The events do explain how the game evolved into it's current mess though.

    I didn't even know RG resigned as CEO, nor that the Travian partnership dissolved (what were they thinking to get involved in the first place??).

    What was the official reason for RG resigning? Any explanation for Travian fleeing?
     
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  7. evillego6

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    It's not a review, so I wouldn't expect that.
     
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  8. evillego6

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    I don't think there is an obligation on a story written about the development history of the game to attempt to move the ball forward.
     
  9. macnlos

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    SotA is not dead. But at the same time we can say it missed the mark of what it could be, Portalarium has mad many mis-steps and the only reason why it is still here is that there are some people who like it and others who feel they are pot heavy and too invested.

    As for "just another propaganda piece"... once again this is back on Portalarium's hand. There is a reason for proper marketing and community management. Chiefly managing the narrative and expectations of the product. Something Portalarium has not done at all. How can I say that? Because everything I read/hear is negative with no one really addressing it.
     
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  10. macnlos

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    I didn't say there was. What I was saying is that I don't like this article because it doesn't help.
     
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  11. Woodchuck

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    I think that's a very naive conclusion, or at best, arguable. Unless you are a dictator.

    When you work closely with people and the professional/personal relationships begin to blur, it is not always easy to remain steadfast to your own vision/ideas. Not always easy to say "hell no that's a terrible idea" and shoot people down. And over time, slowly but surely, compromise creeps in, a bit here, a bit there. And before you know it, it's not really the baby you had in mind anymore. It's Frankentstein.
     
  12. evillego6

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    I guess I have a hard time envisioning the sort of article that is written from a perspective of 'moving the ball forward' for a game with which the site is supposed to have an independent perspective on.
     
  13. GivenUpToo

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    This was his statement.

    In regards to Travian, understanding was that they were supposed to do a lot more with marketing, etc, which didn't come to fruition? It just didn't end up working out.
     
  14. majoria70

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    It really isn't so bad what the op says. It is his opinion. I was never here for the Ultima game and single player ideas but for Ultima Online ideas. So true there were 2 groups cheering for the game the offline and online supporters. Still imo what caused the most problems was that the game became such an ambitious project trying to do a great job on offline and online and there was just not enough funding to do a great job for either. Not to say that there aren't some great things about the game but in the end it has pulled off a massive inconstancy of a game where very little feels complete. I actually have more patience to hang in there than most to hope for a game that is fun and gives much more of a complete feeling. This has by no means been an all fun journey even though at times it was very interesting.

    The lack of funding and cheaply done systems never brought to a satisfying complete state has been really hard to watch and still it continues. Advertising upcoming systems to the game such as treasure hunting to be found in loot makes me nervous. The lack of an achievement system, basic progressive tasks, and more are left completely out trying to make up for this with 'stuff'. I like stuff too but not instead of. If all that the upcoming treasure hunting system includes is treasure maps as loot with nothing cool about it but more of grind then my patience will really start to waiver with this game. Also and I agree with a lot of this this comment from the OP:

    "In addition, some features were not delivered at all, such as decisions with consequences and a single-player mode that feels and does not give the impression of an offline MMORPG. Shroud of the Avatar lacks the clear line and lacks the technical framework."



    Anyway I can totally get where the OP is coming from. It has been a bit of heartache here and here I stand hoping to see a difference to getting some satisfactory updates to incomplete systems one day. So far one day has lasted years. In the meantime we have a world that gives a lot of things to do especially if you are project oriented but for those who are not soon they will run out of quests, achievements, and new explorations to keep them here. Don't count on satisfactory completions though. Many semi-difficult puzzles and quests leave you disappointed wanting more from the experience of them. As always I wish to be listened to and will keep trying until I don't. So onward we go.
     
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2019
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  15. Elwyn

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    As far as I can tell, the big problem was that advertising failed. Supposedly it was Travian's responsibility, and supposedly they blew all the advertising money on Facebook ads that looked like the kind of stuff used to advertise mobile trash games. Very few (then-) current players saw any of them, and those that did and reposted them showed something that looked like it was just an initial test of the ad system.

    Meh, I checked the original article, that's literally the word they used. I was hoping to find something like "schißesturm".

    Gee, who'da thunk it?

    It's the quest system, not the quests themselves. The biggest problem is quest markers/milestones that won't go away. There are also some things that can go out of sync like starting the quest with Samael's ring and not completing it before a few steps later in that main quest line. And there are some non-obvious steps, like you have to take a specific boat to Xenos to advance a main quest, instead of just going there on your own, or you'll be stuck with no clue of what you should have done. The journal can get out of sync as well, and its UI is quite clunky. Maybe the excessive skeuomorphism seemed like the right thing at the time. Thanks to the layoffs, which were thanks to advertising not bringing in new players, they don't have the manpower to fix the quest system properly right now, so it's on the Episode 2 list.

    It's almost as if he's reporting on the game's state at the time when he got the boot, and nothing has happened since then. Ctrl-F, dungeon, not found. Yep.

    Fixed.

    That's not a great salary in Austin for any tech job. Good thing they're not in California.

    Criticism when it's the exact same thing month after month, asking for the same mountains to be moved every time is somewhat less valid. I don't see any change from his usual gripes of the past.

    That was a few months ago, and the way I saw it explained was that he only had that position because there was an assumption that they needed a CEO position at all. But naturally every detractor hailed it like an armageddon of doom and gloom.

    They were supposed to help with marketing and sales in Europe and some other areas, just as Black Sun was supposed to handle Russia and Eastern Europe. Apparently Travian lost interest and wanted to go more into mobile games or something. (which may partly explain the non-advertising) I read that Travian even paid money to exit the deal. Is Black Sun still in charge of Russia, etc.? It's been a while since I've heard gripes from people in non-Cyrillic countries that were forced to use Black Sun.

    I started in R20. Basically the two main vocal groups were:
    - We're getting a single player Ultima game that just happens to have an online option! Yay!
    - We're getting UO 2.0, with PvP too! Yay!
    Those expectations were basically in opposition to each other, and neither group was happy as the dust settled. For me, the game has turned out much like I expected after playing it for my first month back in R20, except for the flood of new players that didn't come after release. Those that were unhappy had been interpreting the various promises of KS days their own way for two years.
     
  16. Sir Frank

    Sir Frank Master of the Mint

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    And there were also single-player-ONLINE fans, but let's continue to overlook them. They've mostly gone now anyway.
     
  17. macnlos

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    Naive? No. It's not about being a dictator either. Someone is either in charge or not. Someone is either a good leader or not. A good leader understands their strengths and weaknesses. They also understand the strengths and weaknesses of those close to them. If they don't, then they are not a good leader. This is in addition to be able to steer/drive/lead those around them down the path of their vision.

    Try this, it's leadership 101: https://www.forbes.com/sites/brentg...es-on-what-makes-a-great-leader/#cc5dc7a5dd19
     
  18. Vladamir Begemot

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    The devs have been making consistent progress in reducing or eliminating a lot of the bad hangups that existed this time last year. Thus, people like the author haven't actually played the current version of the game, so they remember a quest system so buggy that it was on another level.

    I don't like the quest UI in the slightest, but there are meaningful decisions, some great moments, and some grand ideas, and a lot of people actually do like the quests, despite all its flaws.

    Here's the big secret with Shroud of the Avatar. There is a lot to like and a lot to love. Not for everyone, but for those who get into it you can conceivably spend your next 50-100 hours of single player story mode, and 10,000 hours of MMO time in this game doing countless different thing, for free.

    It'll be an interesting moment when the first Free to Play player buys them self a Town with in game earnings, having spent zero real money. It'll happen.
     
  19. Sara Dreygon

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    Got my money worth so it is a success to me :).
     
  20. Jason_M

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    I don't reckon we can fault the website too much as the article is pretty straight forward with it's intent: It's a rant. The story of a failure is a smear piece by design - a lisy of faults that culminated in self destruction.

    Unfortunately, the problem with airing your dirty laundry in front of outsiders is that they have no balance to refer to. A "review" must establish a context of both good and bad to help the reader understand the state of the product.

    This fellow cherry-picked the bad or the things that he didn't like that he passed off as bad.

    It's neither a review or proper journalism. It's an editorial - a fancy word your grandfather would use for a newspaper rant.
     
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