Changing attitude towards PVP...

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by queenbee, Jul 24, 2021.

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  1. Anpu

    Anpu Bug Hunter

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  2. CatDude

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  3. redfish

    redfish Avatar

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    I don't get upset whenever anyone kills me in PvP because:

    1. Its just a game.
    2. Players are doing what the game allows them to, and if you hate the rules blame the game developers.
    2. Dying is incredibly easy in SotA. Just go to a respawn point, and if there's ransom just pay for your items back. Seriously, people stop crying about it. This game is incredibly easy. If you get killed, its not the end of the world. If there's one person in particular harassing you, go back to the area later.

    Nonetheless, I think the concept there is no good or bad behavior in PvP just because people are allowed to do what they want is a bit BS-y. I support free speech, but in a free speech environment, someone can still be an a-hole to you. Just the same way, in a free PvP environment, someone could still be an a-hole to you.

    Now, I support the concept of role-playing in role-playing games, always have. I like the idea of playing as a bandit or a pirate or a thief, playing that role and preying on other players. You know, intentionally playing as an a-hole, because your character is an a-hole. The problem is, what we saw in UO, is this model of PvP (and I could dissect it) kills role-playing. The reason we had the term PK, Player Killer, in UO is because "Player Killer" was in contrast to "Character Killer", you were targeting the player and not the character. If you just go out and randomly attack players for no good reason and have no real consequences, you're not role-playing a bandit -- in real life, you'd be a amoral psycho. So, by harassing and targeting other players, rather than role-playing an a-hole, you were a a-hole.

    SotA ultimately didn't change the model from UO, it just allowed you to flag to be open to attack from a-holes, so if you got attacked by an a-hole, that was your choice and you chose that voluntarily. But its like saying you can voluntarily join a free speech board, and if someone is an a-hole to you on a free speech board, you volunteered to be open to that. Yea, you did. But the a-hole is still an a-hole. In a game, there's such a thing as a good sport, and a bad sport.

    I don't get angry at players, but its basically why I think SotAs model of PvP still is bad and the devs should have done it differently. I do wish some players showed better awareness of what other people's perception of the game's PvP experience is like.
     
  4. Vesper

    Vesper Avatar

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    Why shouldn't whomever it was take that advantage? If you're in a PvP zone solo, be aware of what you can handle expecting to have to fight somebody while doing so. If you can't solo 3 dragons and somebody attacking you fight one at a time. Bring a friend, bring two friends, be aware of your surroundings.
    There was a time when that scene, with 3 dragons was worth that risk. XP was good, loot was good, and it warrented a person or a party taking that risk.
    With new zones, new loot, new expectations of xp / hour, pvp zones need to be readressed. XP, Loot, Gathering in a PvP zone should be so good that a party takes the risk of entering, so that the reward is proportional.
     
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  5. FBohler

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    My main problem with PvP is that it's totally unbalanced and meta driven.

    They could make it a bit more relevant by holding weekly PvP Tournaments with different categories and nice prizes.

    Other than that, PvP is on life support right now. Even The Fall is a pretty dead scene nowadays.
     
  6. Vaentorian

    Vaentorian Localization Team

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    This. Sure, if I voluntarily enter a game of full-contact sportsball I might get knocked about; but if me and my buddies don't dare play sportsball at the local park because of the bullies who beat us up when we go there, I'm inclined to disagree that sportsball - and the park - are therefore off limits to us and we should just accept that.

    Not that everyone who participates in PvP is an a-hole by any means, it's more that "online + open to everyone" tends to attract a much higher proportion of a-holes than the real world, often with less effective means to keep them in check.

    I don't seek out PvP encounters, nor will I go out of my way to avoid forced PvP zones (I completed the main quest without bypassing any of them, never even saw another player), but whatever the circumstances if someone kills me *and is a jerk about it* I will by annoyed that they were a jerk - the fact they killed me is largely peripheral since as others have pointed out it's a minor inconvenience rather than game-ending catastrophe in SotA.
     
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  7. Vesper

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    At high levels, to some degree yes, but not nearly to the extent that people think. Somebody experienced, in most any build is going to win vs somebody not 99 times out of 100. This can be seen in any of the new capped zones.
    The vast majority of any of said experienced players will go out of their way with tips and advice if asked.
    PvP scenes may appear dead for a fee of reasons. There are far too many of them, they are way too big, and the reward doesn't warrant the risk for most.
    In the case of the Fall specifically, XP and mining is good, but there is no reason at all that it shouldn't be far far better than any other scene. So good that instead of tangelmier, you go to mine in the Fall, and perhaps bring a party to protect you. Or a group trys the hold the throne room because the xp and loot is better than a control point.
     
    Last edited: Jul 25, 2021
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  8. Cora Cuz'avich

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    Though, you have to run past some pretty high level baddies to do it.
     
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  9. queenbee

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    The status of being an ******* is applied to the player, not to a category of people. I can name PVE assholes just as easily as I could name PVP assholes. Define what an "*******" is. Is it someone who rez kills you? Well that's a risk you take when you flag. Is it someone who ganks you? Well that's a risk you take when you flag. Just now I recalled back to my house and went afk forgetting that my recall is now bound to the house that's in a PVP zone. So when I came back to my computer and saw I was standing outside... I thought oh damn, that was dumb of me...
     
  10. FBohler

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    If by experienced you mean "knows how to abuse the meta", yes we agree 100%.

    About PvP zones being dead, my point stands still, despite the content in said scenes being on par or even worse than the non-PvP ones, they are canonically where the PvP activity should be happening besides some random flagged encounters in regular scenes.

    The absolute lack of adventurers gaining some XP while looking for a fight in The Fall tells lot about the state of PvP.

    Again, my suggestion is official PvP tournaments to encourage people to engage.
     
  11. Vesper

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    No, that's not at all what I mean. Fair chance anyone who PvPs regularly could take down somebody just starting out with an AL100-120 with some of the worst builds for PvP, blades for example.
     
  12. CatDude

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    And this is the first thing that makes PVP unattractive: the bullies. The simple truth is that some people who cry for "Open PVP" everywhere are RL bullies who want to take their behavior into the cyber-realm, where they can get away with anything much easier, because the RL social and legal constraints to their behavior don't exist or are minimal or, worst of all, even encouraged by some game publishers to maximize pressure on grinders to cave in and join the Pay-to-Win crowd that is now sadly becoming the revenue model for the AAA publishers. Thankfully, the last part doesn't apply here.

    Some of us are attempting this with The Obsidian Trial. The beauty of the OT is that it provides actual stakes, actual prizes, in the form of Obsidian Coins and Obsidian Medallions. These can used for deco or traded for unique potions, emotes, and titles that can only be obtained from the OT vendor. Further, since the OT has level caps, it provides for a more even competitive playing field, relatively speaking.
     
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  13. Anpu

    Anpu Bug Hunter

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    Make me wonder why we don't yet(?) have a group of active players who go out and are dedicated to hunting down such players. And giving that player back the harassment that they are doing to other players.... ;)

    I *possibly* for the first time ever, would flag PVP just to join such a party. Granted I can't really help that much, as I suck combat wise. But I'd at least try my best. :)
     
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  14. Vesper

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    I don't currently think there are any current players who harrass. (I personally will happily harrass forum trolls who post on /raw given the rare opportunity)
    However, I encourage people to get together and form a party for pvp. You can have 12 person parties, and there are a lot of high / mid level players who do not pvp. A dozen learning to work together would be terrific.
    That being said, given then original topic of this post... Define harrasment, because it's always consensual.
    Regarding OT, I've suggested, with a lot of refinments I won't go into here, that the skull coin system become the insentive everywhere, and that purchasables are made more attractive. Skill capped zones are great, they need to look into adding stat caps as well.
     
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  15. Violet Ronso

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    Can someone else like this for me? I can't put enough likes to this statement myself :p

    That's not true. The Fall is the only scene that competes with most PvE scenes in terms of exp and loot. The fact that it is the only one also means that it is the most contested. Unlimited amounts of players can earn their fair share of exp and loot in say Tartarus or Panopticon, meanwhile only 1 group of up to 3 players can get as much in the Fall.

    Conversations have often been around risk vs reward, where people find that the loot from most dragons or other tough mobs isn't worth the reward when the risk is so high, but what about PvP scenes? The risk is amplified due to other players, so shouldn't the reward be amplified too? You can barely hit 1m exp an hour in a scene like Paladis Shardfall, why? Why aren't PvP scenes made more interesting? That's whats got PvP numbers low, it's Super duper risk vs meh reward, and meh rewards if you get a kill (even with ransom on).
     
  16. Scanphor

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    Have to disagree with that tbh. Many times I've heard this said and I just don't buy that some non-PvP incentive to "encourage" players to PvP is the answer. At best that may get some people who don't really want to PvP to head into PvP areas and then get annoyed / frustrated / leave the game after they get ganked. The PvP itself should be fun enough and/or have reason enough to do it.

    Speaking for myself I've been / am a major PvPer in other games but don't do it at all in SotA (in fact I refuse to flag or enter PvP zones). I play Eve Online a lot (since 2004) and do nothing but PvP there. I've been thinking about why the difference? Because the PvP there has a context in terms of territory control etc and the PvP gameplay is all about group coordination and tactics etc. Choosing not to do so in SotA has nothing to do with "fear" or "loss" (the death penalty in Eve is one of the most severe - when your ship gets blown up its destroyed permanently).

    So as I see it the answer is probably well out with the realms of what we could expect the small dev team to do - but I've seen many people who've left over the years arguing over there needing to be some kind of "meaningful PvP". I think they are right. Unfortunately as things stand SotA just isn't set up to provide that.
     
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  17. Violet Ronso

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    The thing is, to have PvP, you either need people to be flagged, or in a PvP scene.

    It's easy to Flag and get a private instance with the benefits of being flagged (unless it changed recently, but I did it by accident and learned later that it was "normal"). Meanwhile, PvP scenes aren't attractive, so there is no reason to just hang around there. So for the PvPers out there, it's either hold the Fall, run around all PvP scenes trying to gank someone, or go to PvP events.

    By making PvP scenes more attractive, smaller PvPers like me, Bee and who ever else will spend more time there, and those who don't see the interest as well, and this will lead to more PvP.

    This is not a way to bait in the non-pvpers who won't even like it, it's a way to give PvPers some reward in the downtimes between fights. What I often hear is that it's a waste, 1-2m exp/hour and a small loot bag with a risk of a PvP fight vs 6m+ exp/hour and bigger loot with no risk of PvP, what's the point?
     
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  18. queenbee

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    When PVP has such a negative reputation, it's an uphill battle to even try to make it good. If I was a developer, I'd want nothing to do with it because many people have a toxic view of it. Yes, it may be viewed as unbalanced, it may be viewed as having no purpose by some. These are valid points. But the complaints against being killed while voluntarily flagged is unfounded. Just now someone messaged me by someone killing another playing in a flagged town and getting completely bent out of shape. Then why was he in there?

    We are working to make PVP fun by tossing around ideas (like PVP fishing). I've heard some changes developers are making to make PVP more "balanced" (like the Obsidian Trials). The less toxic of a reputation PVP has, the more attention it can be given to improve it.
     
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  19. Scanphor

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    Yeah you make good points Violet. I wasn't aware of that exploit (? at least I assume that's what it is) which clearly needs stamped on if it's in fact happening all over.

    Clearly as a PvPer myself elsewhere I don't buy the "all PvPers are asshats" narrative and in fact know that PvPers are in general as a group far more inclusive and willing to help other players get better if they are wanting to do so. Having said that there clearly are in all games players who play mainly to get satisfaction from ruining other players' days and such players do tend to head towards PvP as it gives them more opportunity to do so. Whist they are very much a minority (with some personal issues but let's not go there) they are a very visible minority to the rest of the playerbase and that creates the narrative.

    100% agree on the "if you chose to flag you haven't got a leg to stand on if you complain" ;)
     
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  20. Mingo

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    --Ganking and murder almost killed old UO. There IS a form of pvp that is enjoyable, battlegrounds. Of all my favorites were the old 2 hour Alterac Valley battles in WOW. "open field" pvp has a limited audience.
     
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