Combos and stacks as part of deck build

I've mentioned this in other threads but wanted to elaborate on it with its own thread.

Let's have an alternate method to creating stacks and combos: make them part of the deck build.

Adds to the deck building strategy
When building your deck, you now have another layer of complexity to contend with. You now have the option to create combos and stacks so they are part of the deck and are dealt as a single glyph. So, if you make a combo from Fire Arrow and Death Ray, you get dealt a single Fiery Decay glyph.

Similarly, you can stack as many Fire Arrow skills as you have and they get dealt as a single stacked glyph. Extending this further, you can even make a stacked combo.

However, in doing so, you still need to meet the deck minimums for your level. So if you decide to go this route, you may now face getting slugs in your deck. Plus, you now have less number of skills to execute since they are tied up in combos or stacks.

You cannot make new stacks or combos during combat as this style only allows you create them as part of the deck build. You cannot uncombo or unstack the glyph during combat (but that's negotiable).

Mitigates UI focus problem
Creating stacks and combos can be a problem with UI focus for some people, perhaps many people. Many people have tried various out-of-game tools (hoykeys, macros, 10000 button mice, voice control, etc) to get their eyes off the hotbar. Others have suggested auto-stacking or auto-combo skills. I find that funny as the whole point (reward) of creating combos or combos was centered on this out-of-game plate spinning skill. The combo design was designed to reward players who can get better at this, yet players are asking for removal of the skill but still want the reward.

We should stop fighting against the absolute #1 most critical aspect of combat: paying attention to the actual action, your onscreen combatant, your situation / environment, positioning, cover system, counters, etc. I say, get rid of the plate-spinning mechanic altogether which is 100% designed to oppose the above combat aspect and simply allow combos and stacks to be created during the deck build. Keep your eyes on the action, and off the hotbar once and for all.

Issues
Sure, there are a lot of other details to cover such as balance and how cooldowns or timers or focus are affected with this combo / stacking method.

But let's get the discussion started because I want to explore a different method than what we currently have, which is by design creating the problem: keeping your eyes on the hotbar.

 

Sorry this is a terrible idea,

Locked deck for Stacking and combos it is not to hard to make them.

 

You're right, it's not hard to make them. Making combos and stacks is not a complex task. This alternative method isn't trying to simplify that any further, although there are other proposals to enhance the usability of performing them which I won't get into in this thread.

This suggestion is moving that process to the deck building part to mitigate the inherent design problem with the current method, which they've already admitted is a problem. It's also being proposed as a better and more interesting solution than auto-stacking, which is what they're currently leaning towards:

If they go down that route, it's just one more step until we get auto-combos. Those solutions aren't interesting as they automate the process for you and all you have to do is spend a skill point or two. So automating this actually makes combat even more dull. Which is why I'm proposing to move it to the deck build itself, forcing you to think and plan them out before hand -- much like the entire point of building a deck forces you to do the same as you pick and choose which skills to put in your deck. Combos and Stacks are now another set of elements you need to factor into that strategy.

 

yeah guess so Makes for really lame game play but I Guess they have to do something to appease those that complain.

I think it is a weak easy out solution but ah well.

 

I don't like the OP suggestion. I don't consider appropiate to translate what's currently a reward for having micro into a planning mechanic. I also don't agree with this being better than auto stacking; we'll see how they implement it, but if done well, allow two skills to merge could still be a combat decision (which is what, in my opinion, is intended to be). That's why i think autostack is a good way to go... im thinking something in the line of If two instances of the same skill came up, just leaving them be in the skill bar some time will make them merge. Merging by inaction requires noticing the skill without requiring another action; since you have similar skills all the time, stacking seems the most taxing part of the "deck handling" mechanics.

I share that fear as well, but i think there are better ways than prefabricated combos (Also hope they're aware of the dullness of auto stacked combos). I've read lots of ideas that from my point of view are better than current implementation, and also than the OP suggestion. For example combo release by pushing two hotkeys at once (combo skill released, both glyphs consumed), or by hitting one, then using the other immediately after (the last skill come with the special added effect of the combo). The latter is my favourite since it's doable by both keystrokers and mouseclickers. I think they require less attention than current implementation (also more than OP suggestion... but focusing into minimize the attention drawn by the skill bar make it lose other important aspects).

 

Fair point, but I'd beg to differ. I don't think that a player's inaction to tend to his hotbar to stack skills can be assumed to be an intentional thing. If you're able to micro and can see two skills that you can stack, you're more than likely going to stack them vs. intentionally leaving them to wait until they merge. If anything, players are going to lobby for that timer to be as fast as possible to the point of not having to micro at all. Thus again, undoing the whole point of the micro/reward mechanic. Automation of the micro effort is akin to removing the mechanic altogether and imho makes it useless. There's no thought or effort involved. But perhaps they're considering a different auto-stacking method besides just ignoring it, so we'll see.

These are the usability enhancements to performing a combo or stack that I alluded to in my second post above. I've suggested just the same and other ways to create them to manage the micro better. But it's still retaining the mechanic which by design its core mechanic is still creating the problem they're trying to solve. I'm not entirely against this mechanic -- I'm merely suggesting an alternative. There will be players that like this real-time mechanic, just as there are that like the random deck system. But there will be others that prefer locked decks, and still others that might like this alternative. Plus, there is precedent in other games that require more pre-combat preparation of skills. This is just an extension of the deck build system we have now.

 

I wish this combat system didn't need so many bandaids.

I have no trouble making stacks and combos. I have a left handed Razer keyboard and a 1000 button mouse. Guilty of trying to make this work for me. It's still just dull and distracting. I do believe that needs to be addressed.

A combo should be initiated after the first spell of the combo is cast. A glyph animation should let you know that a combo can be triggered. I'd get to look at the screen that way. Using my peripheral vision I could see what key the combo is in and carry on.

Glyphs that are nice to know should be made smaller while glyphs that l are need to know could remain the current size.

Id prefer if auto stacking occurred. The more I think about doing this skill and waiting for the right moment the more potent it will be. You would trade a strong well timed attack for a bunch of "feints". Could also us my peripheral vision to perhaps notice a change in color state of a glyph that is stacking.

I'd also prefer if my base attack or "white" damage meant more. Constantly caring about these advanced convoluted combos and stacks seems to take away from the fact that a plain old sword hurts and so does and arrow or magic missile. Might want to duck and cover.

I look forward to the day when I enjoy combat in this game. I like everything else. I actually like grinding but doing it with this combat system is Grinding 2.0

 

There have been suggestions to change the mechanic to become chained combos vs. the micro / effort of combining glyphs. That also would be an alternative to the current system and should also be explored.

 

I disslike the idea of "pre-building" combos so much ... its like having sex with the bride right on the altair in front of the priest, instead of on the wedding night

I guess lot of players come up with ideas like this and how to "improve" the current combat system, sometimes topping it with complaints how terrible it is ... because they are just furious of missing glyph now and there, not beeing able to fire all the desired combos during every fight even using 1000 button super mouse tweak, when all you need to do is sit back and relax

- you can drag and drop the glyphs by mouse and combo/stack them
- you can hit R and create a combo/stack
- you need to pay attention
- you need to accept that in the flow of combat you are not able to perfectly link all combat skill one after another ... hitting its hot button second before it cools down and still cast it perfectly (lot of current mmos support this "premature" skill use - the system just queries your skill - so lame)
- you can start with smaller hand size, lock glyphs, learning about your deck, proper glyph use, ...

- I am with my all five to keep the combat system just right as it is - just tweek the skill tree ...
- I have to admit that while I could enjoy some polish of the current state I love the combat system as something creative and new ... and from at least half of my love is fuelled with so many people complaining that it is "too hard" for them to comprehend

my singature says it all i hope

 

Of course, a reduced timer may undo the mechanic; that's why the timer should be kept in a delicate balance between disregardable and annoying... I also agree that with the proper amount of micro, you can stack all skills that come up. I don't consider myself a player with insane micro but i manage quite well the keyboard, and last time i played, i could stack all skills as they came up via hotkeys, but that's taxing and it distracted me from combat. I suggested delayed auto stacking because i think is less taxing to think "oh i want skills in slots 1 and 6 to merge, i won't hit those buttons until i they're one" than "i want to merge skills 1 and 6 so r + 6 + 1" (that's without taking in consideration than after actively merging skills another skill pops up in the empty slot, and you'll probably want to merge that as well...)

Identifying a possible wrong turn in a mechanic (usually) don't invalidate it, just gives a hint of the ways that shouldn't be explored. Besides, intentional inaction can be rewarded if properly implemented. With delayed auto stacking (and assuming we have an appropiate merge time) if two instances of the same skill pops up, the skilled player needs to ponder if he needs that skill now, or if he can handle having two slots taken for a while in exchange of a more powerful - cheap instance of that skill, while the novice just use it or allow them to merge with no regard for the current situation (mindless button mashing).

That's undeniably true. Mitigate doesn't mean eliminate, and both alternatives i'm proposing just lessen the attention required to perform a combo (or at least i think they do). The whole issue here is in the term "solve"... what's the perspective taken by devs to solve this issue? Do they want to reduce to a minimum the amount of attention required? or will they try to reduce the attention required but while trying to keep the mechanic alive? If up to me, i'll go with the latter because i think it's an interesting concept worth of some (but not all) of my attention.

I like the concept of the combat system a lot (in fact its implementation is what made me pledge) but because of that i'm aware that, even if they were conservative about its current state it needs a lot of polish: ways of tax less the attention of the player so you can focus on the combat while micromanaging your skills and also to reimagine core mechanics related to combat so they fit properly in combat situations. We can call it polish... but i think its more like removing the current bodywork, craft another one and put it in. What i'm trying to say is that the concept is right to me, but from my point of view it's still a long way until combat system is in a state where it could develop it's full potential.

 

- I still dont fully get argument that people want to look/focus at the combat, but dont want to look/focus on the skill bar...the skill bar is part of the combat in this game

- Its not like in WoW where there was so much of an interface that you could barely see what happends in the game. I pretty much know where are my glyphs, I know where are my locked spells so I dont have to check on them at all and I only check quickly on what current situation offers me in skill bar and hit/click one of the glyphs or combo them.

- The fact that most part of the fight I can not be sure what glyphs I draw and how the combat will evolve from now own brigs thrill in it for me ... I know that everytime I have to check on the skill bar I am leaving certain ground (locked glyphs that I can spam and dont have to check on them) and stepping on uncertain, accepting current disadvantage (focus on skill bar) for chance to get ahead an use skill bar offered advantage ... goodbye mindless rotations

- The combat is not so fast paced that I would loose track of what happends and I usually have plenty of time to rotate camera and check on full animation of the glyph/combo I am casting

- Yes, the slim green border indicating combo possibility is pretty discreet and I can imagine that players would like better indications but still, I dindt have any troubles with the skill bar and combat state as it is implemented now.

- We are in pre-alpha hence lot of polish will take place, but I will repeat "polish" over and over, because I certainly dont think that we need

, nor reinveting anything. Last release brought couple nice improvements in combat, next will as well, but the system is here - invented and given - you unlock skills, build a deck and "SEMI TURN BASED CARD LIKE ALL RANDOM WHOOOP WHOOOP COMBAT SYSTEM ON YOU YOU LAZY "oldschool" GAMERS" :-D

 

I feel the same way you do... that's why i like the combat deck system (no rotations - reduced, functional, and customizable skill set - uncertainty) except in the point where everything that last is polish, sorry. Maybe we don't think of polish as the same part of the developing process... What i call "polish" is to basically make numbers high and low; since I still think that for this system to reach its full potential some combat related core mechanics need to be changed, hence my car metaphor.

The interface is a common disccused issue because of the way the game was promoted (a game where immersion is a key factor). Problem is that skill bars are immersion breakers for a lot of people, and they think a game can't be immersive if it has UI. As for me, I don't care if i need to check my skill bar often to bear the uncertainty of combat (in WoW i just needed a couple of glances each 10 seconds because i knew my way around my keybindings), but i think it still requires too much attention... and i honestly think that the suggestions i did may lessen the attention required while keeping the purpose of the original mechanic.

Just to be clear, i want the random deck system to stay (i liked it last time i played, i think i'd enjoy it even more now that things seems to be even better!) but i can't avoid seeing the flaws it has.

 

Actually, the randomness isn't under dispute with this proposal. I'm not against that aspect of deck combat and the suggestion here doesn't remove any part of it. In fact, it actually adds to it because now you don't have control of when you will be dealt a stack or combo.

So it's not so much that the mechanic itself is terrible. It's speaking more to the fact that its entire design is in competition with the other major aspects of combat and is largely creating the problem the devs are still trying to solve, which I've mentioned many times above.

Sure, currently it appears they are trying to work on the latter, to try and reduce the time needed to micro as much as possible, but not remove the micro completely (at least for combos, they have auto-stacking coming). This suggestion is more about the former and is an option should they want to go that route also.

I like the concept as well and I think they definitely should continue to tweak, balance, polish, etc. so that it can meet its full potential. And that's great for people who enjoy this style of deck combat. Again, the suggestion here is to offer an alternative, not a replacement, for a different style that many others also might enjoy given the additional complexity now to deck building strategy offered here.

There are competing design goals at work here: from UI-less interface, to onscreen action, to hotbar micro, etc. It's simply a set of dials that are being tuned to set how much focus is, or rather should, be spent on each aspect. Even with a locked deck where there are no combos or stacks you still have to look at your hotbar to micro the cooldown timers. So it's not a suggestion to get rid of any aspect of looking at your hotbar. It's simply a suggestion for an alternate method to create combos and stacks with the random deck system, where the dial required to micro your hotbar is lowered but not removed.

I like that aspect as well and the suggestion here doesn't remove any of it. As mentioned above, it actually adds to it.

That's great for you, but for others, it can be too much, especially when you have to consider the full combat system has not yet been implemented. We still have the cover system coming, along with the visual and audio polish to combat -- both of which are by design keeping your focus on the action/combatant -- and all of that is competing with everything else currently going on, which is situation/environment, line of sight, attacks and counters/blocks, and of course, your hotbar for the next deal. As Chris mentioned in his posts and in Hangouts, some players are great at this while others need this hotbar micro tuned down to a much greater degree. Thus the whole point of the new combat design where you can assign skills to slots. Thus the next feature proposed which is auto-stacking, which gets rid of that micro completely. All those tweaks I'm in favor of and have suggested exactly those features in other threads. This thread is simply another alternative.

Sure, I'm looking forward to all those changes and improvements to the random deck system. I'm simply offering an alternative to how combos and stacks are created, not a replacement to the current system which I'm sure they will iterate on.

I'd like to keep this discussion focused on how creating combos and stacks as part of the deck build can create new gameplay opportunities or combat strategies, and what the pros and cons of that may be. While it's fine to discuss how the current system needs more polish / tweaking / balancing, as I'm in favor of that system too and not asking for that to go away, I would like to focus on the suggestion itself to spawn new ideas.

 

There'll be more than one combo you can make with one glyph -- one spell might be able to combo with 5 other spells -- so I can't see how it would be helpful in a lot of decks, as it would be animating all the time. Plus, you might not even want to cast the first spell. Lets say you want to combine fire and ice to create a steam spell or stone and air to cast a sandstorm; or lets say you want to combo spells that use reagents and don't even want to waste reagents on the first one being cast.

The combo system, or as Chris called it the last hangout, spell weaving, is really about spell composition -- mixing different elements , different spell forms, different movements together, etc. It also makes sense that you do all of this in the middle of combat, IMO, rather than pre-plan them in your deck.

 

Lots of interesting ideas here, but this one has me puzzled:

Are you saying that in order to use the combo Fiery Decay, you should first have to "fire" the Fire Arrow and then "fire" Death Ray separately after some determined delay?

Just looking for clarification on this one point....

 

Sure! It is magic after all. Why not imagine casting a fire arrow and then tagging death ray to its trailing essence? This extra 1/2 step may even provide a moment that can be interrupted. No action delay and a decreased casting time/cost for the death ray as its piggy backing on the etheral connection you have made with your target. Or in the last second you could decide to do the other combo you might have access to.

Its true that there are numerous options for any combo. Your unlikely to have all of them and you will know what slots they are assigned to.

 

I can imagine it, but I'd prefer not to - unless I'm forced to.
Otherwise...........not so much.
Just my 2 cents.