Dear Lum

The opening scene involves two key but unrelated things:

1. Your path selection re Truth, Love or Courage
2. Your initial skill/weapon loadout

The real problem is that the two are conflated, when in fact they are unrelated.
I understand that the reason for this is the problem of designing tutorials for various combinations of 1 and 2.

The option to allow the avatar to reroll seems like a good one - one that has precedent in the Fallout games - however I probably would have delayed it until the exit from Solace Bridge, Highvale or Blood River.

An alternative would be to give the player all the starting skill points and skillsets that are offered, and all the starting weapons, so everyone starts out the same in terms of skill/potential weapon loadout (they are still on individual virtue paths, and still start in different locations). That way they can be given the same weapon/skill tutorial, which would be written to be more generic.

 

not being able to start the game with the skills i want and or don't want just makes me want to kill the gypsy.

 

If SotA is going to be a game where your in-game choices matter, then I think there is no better way to introduce players to that concept than having the starting questions really make an impact on your character. I strongly dislike the idea of having the player be able to change the decision at the end. That cheapens the whole experience and just reinforces that this is just another typical MMO where dialog means nothing as you can just change the result at whim. If players delete their characters and restart the game to pick a different path, so be it, the important part of the whole experience is not the bonus skill points, but the lesson that your choices matter. I really don't want to first interaction in the game to reinforce the whole min/max concept by letting you just change your path because you want Bows. Instead of just being able to change our path at the end, how about an option to RESTART the questions over again to get a different choice? That would encourage players to explore the dialog options a bit.

However, the three paths right now are severely lacking in variety. With the number of skill schools and magic schools out there, there should be a A LOT more questions that will further refine your character. Not every warrior should start out with swords, there should be an equal number of warriors starting out with maces and polearms. Same with magic schools.

In the original Ultimas, there were 8 different outcomes to the initial questions. I think that there are enough schools out that there we can come with up 8 different starting skill sets. That will go further to letting players decide (through dialog) their starting skills than just the three. If we go with the same 8 virtues as in Ultima:

Compassion: Cleric (Life magic, Sun, and Maces)
Honesty: Elementalist (Fire, Water, Earth, Air magic)
Honor: Support warrior (Pole-arms, Focus/Intelligence)
Humility: Stealthy Archer (Bow, Moon, Subterfuge)
Justice: Hybrid (Pole-arms, multiple spell schools)
Sacrifice: Tank Warrior (Mace, Shield, Heavy Armor)
Spirituality: Wizard (Death, Moon)
Valor: DPS Warrior (Sword - two handed, fire magic)

At least this way we'd have a bit more ways to customize ourselves and stay true to the older Ultimas.

Another possibility would be to have three series of questions, one gives you an initial skill set of one of the martial abilities (Sword, Mace, Polearm, Bow) the second gives you a set of one of the elemental skills (Fire, Water, Earth, Air) and the third gives you skills from one of the Cosmic schools (Sun, Moon, Life, Death). So I might end up as a Polearm, Air magic, Life magic user. If my rough math is correct, this would lead to 64 different options at start...a MUCH better way to diversify.

 

there are parts of the ultima system they cannot recreate due to not owning ultima rights. having eight starter classes may be one of them.

 

I doubt that's it. If I remember right, there were only 8 starting classes in Ultima 4. In Ultima 5, they were condensed down into 3 classes (Fighter, Wizard, Bard) and in later Ultimas there were no classes, your stats just changed.

You may have a point with the 8 specific virtues. But I bet they just could change the names slightly to get around that. It would be good know though what constraints are in place in Shroud because of the Ultima IP

 

There are no constraints... thats been an excuse to end alot of forum arguments and the devs have stayed very frustratingly silent about it...

The constraint was a regular NDA, it lasts 10 years usually in teh industry and only the TMs are considered unusable, in teh case of ultima probably only the name ultima and a few "companions" are TMed names...

 

From ultima 4:

• Compassion - Bard
• Honesty - Mage
• Honor - Paladin (heavy armour + blade + shield + life magic?)
  
• Humility - Shepherd (shepherds uses staffs so perhaps they could go polearm)
  
• Justice - Druid
• Sacrifice - Tinker
• Spirituality - Ranger
• Valor - Fighter (heavy armour + big weapon?)

 

I believe they've said in the past that Truth, Love, and Courage are part of Episode I. Remember we have EP 1 through 5 that may include the virtues. I don't think this is a case of them not using Intellectual Property. I believe that they're simply trying to tell a story involving only the premise of Truth, Love, and Courage.

That said, I still don't understand why we can't have a 4th path (JUST FOR THE START SKILLS and not for the entire game). I don't get why picking your own starting skills is such a problem.

 

Wish we instead of answearing questions could be sent into short scenarios
with several ways to complete them and each end somehow giving different rewards (in terms of skills)

 

Would be better than what it is right now... I beleive the wording and rythm of the whole scene should be reworked, including the questions. I appreciate the nostalgy but there is a definite need for more refinement, more art.

Whoever decides at the top : MORE ART ! I feel this should be a priority its the first thing a new player sees in the game, it could weight heavily in the balance.

 

Although in principle I agree that choices should matter, good game design dictates that the transition from cause to affect should have a logic that is apparent to the player. Otherwise it is seen as random - no better than Russian Roulette, and any unwanted outcome will result in the player feeling unjustifiably punished at the start of the game.

The above association of weapon loadout to virtue is, to anyone not familiar with the Ultima series, completely random.

 

@RichardGarriott told me once, that he wants the character creation to go as fast as possible, and basically have "a new you" station somewhere later on. - i can see that desire in the quick questionnaire at the start, and dislike the automagic assignment of skills.

i think there should be the option for a wall between the two. ask the questions that are there, set social attunements for the oracle with them. ask if you want to follow those questions for your skills, or manage your own now.
with the 'manage your own now' you are given weapon types based on those selections... if you choose magic skills, you are given a staff/wand. if you choose crushing skills and dual wield, you are then given two handaxes.. if you choose crushing skills alone, you are given a 2handed axe... the scripting for that should be fairly self explanitory. no need for an ESO-like tutorial that lets the player grab whatever weapon type they wish off a table, although that would be more simple than the scripting via skill selections.

 

Even then I don't see the problem with making 10-20 tutorials... its your game and you should be giving it alot of love.

Just like I should spray anti-corrosion under my car even if noone forces me to.

 

Just to let everyone know that silence does not equal being ignored - there is a lot of good feedback here and this is under active discussion for how we can refine our tutorial experience while maintaining true to Ultima lore.

 

I think a big part of the plan in Shroud is to focus solely on the 3 principals in Episode 1, to introduce players gradually into the 'virtues' and then open up the rest of the virtues in Episode 2 as the players are able to further develop their characters into more defined roles. So I don't think doing the traditional Ultima, 8-virtues, will be something that works with Episode 1's lore. We don't want it to look like it's a class system during the tutorial, but at the same time, we need to show that our choices matter..

I think if NPC followers of 'Love' tend to be archers, and NPC followers of 'Truth' tend to be wizards, that would be fine, as long as it's not forcing the player to use their abilities in the same exact way. Dexterity can be useful for any class, and likewise intelligence.. and so can strength! A wizard might not need great strength to swing a sword, but it would allow them to carry more reagents and haul more loot.. etc. All the base stats that following any principal can influence, can be useful for any class.. so, making these moral choices should be able to lead us toward useful skills no matter what our play style. I just think the tutorial just needs to be more careful not to 'apparently' pigeon-hole us into any specific playstyle, or players will start to freak out and get upset.

I'm looking forward to see how this progresses. I really hope the 'gypsy experience' gets fleshed out a bit more and feels more meaningful than simple starter gear.

 

Goal 1: start character on one of the three paths.
Goal 2: equip character
Goal 3: have a few tutorials ready.

Questions get you on the path. Check.
Questions get you equipped? No, the path equips you, and then the tutorial follows.

New question: Does the loadout and tutorial match the path? We have already shown that any loadout can complete solace bridge. What about the others?

If path and loadout do not need to be connected, then add a few more questions to enable choice of loadout after path is selected.

Last question: Are the skill trees for bludgeon and swords, or fire/Sun and cold/water similar enough at the lower tiers to make the tutorials work the same?

If yes, then one final question to specialize just a little. The equipment questions could even be asked by Arabella as she joins you at the rift to say goodbye and good luck.
@Lum

 

No one complained when Ultima IV picked your class and equipment based on virtue. I thought it was cool. I think people are just used to a more in depth character creation system, particularly in online games.

SotA is striving for immersion (as much as people hate the word). Can I present this as a compromise?

Let's say you picked Courage and that path leads to melee weapons. Later in the tutorial scene you are prompted to pick up a weapon (as you do now), but there are three sets before you.

1 - Sword and shield
2 - Dual blades
3 - Great Axe

Now let's say you pick love and that is supposed to feed into archery currently. But you have a choice of three weapons again:

1 - Crossbow
2 - Longbow
3 - Daggers

You pick Truth and you get the following options

1 - Wand
2 - Club
3 - Spear

This is still done from an immersive perspective of picking up the weapon in the scene and using it rather than selecting an option from a menu in a character creator.

In general, I'd like to see skill use in the tutorial inform your starting character. What if there is also a table of tools and you were able to pick one as well? Do you pick a taming color, a fishing rod, a cloak to help you sneak?

Right now the three tutorial scenes are fairly similar and don't fully embrace the virtue quest lines they are going to kick off. Someone else noted that if you pick Courage, one of the first things you see is a burning bridge and they assumed it was a virtue test. They charged into a burning bridge, but that isn't what you're supposed to do. But what if you were asked to perform a feat of bravery to save someone in that scene such as running through flames?

In the Truth scene you're discouraged from looting the dead because it is a virtue hit, but you need to find something to progress. I think in the Courage scene you're actually required to loot from a dead body to progress, despite the pop-ups telling you this is bad from a virtue perspective. What if Edvard challenged you to learn something from the Truth scene and report to him what you learned in your investigation. What if in the Love scene you encountered Quincy in his dying throws (I always pass over his corpse because I don't want the virtue hit of looting them). What if you had the option of taking his dying possessions to his wife, or pocketing them yourself for starter gold?

 

Yes! This is what the starting (and future) quests should be like. The kill 10x, escort so and so, find something quests have been done to death.

I would love to see the Courage quest actually put you into a situation where displaying Courage seems counter-intuitive (based on what we know of MMORPGs). For example, the parable of Geoffrey and the Dragon:
http://ultima.wikia.com/wiki/The_Tale_of_Geoffrey_and_the_Dragon

1. Task the player with defeating some sort of creature
2. Make it very clear that the creature is much more powerful than the player
3. Put in a mechanism that the player survives a death blow, but at 1hp. The creature then stops attacking and gives the player a dialog choice: continue fighting, knowing that death is certain or let the player flee to safety. If the player continues to fight, have something intervene (the creature fears a trap like in the Tale of Geoffrey, reinforcements arrive, etc). If the player flees, he lives, but something bad happens in the scene. Reward the player accordingly to the virtue displayed.

Similar tasks in the Truth and Love scenes would really be awesome as well. Instead of "get to the other side of the bridge by killing really weak skeletons" make the scenes something that really showcases how SotA is going to be different. If it really is going to be different.

 

slightly off topic but you brought it up :

i'd like to see the entire game work this way, not just the tutorial.
i have a tendancy to, due to my entire history of gaming, check the loot for everything, see what i need and move on - selecting only items i need.. however, playing a magic user, i follow truth so i have to go against my nature as a gamer - i'd expect taking coin and reagents from the dead that do not need it, shouldn't be an isuse. but taking their clothing/armor/weapons/personal items should have a negative affect to that virtue, same as placing items on their corpses...then again, have quests of investigation wehre you NEED the evidence of those personal items - so handing them to the appropriate quest-related NPC gives that virtue point back..

back to point: every single action in the tutorial should have a more profound effect on the outcome of the avatar's "starting status" - their baseline.. so no character is at a 0-status and identical to any other character. while after the tutorial, each action should have an effect, just not as profound of one, because you are out of the tutorial and have years to sculpt your personal build. - doing this has an added benefit of bringing NPC faction systems into play for role players too, so RP is not simply a player-character experience.

 

This is definitely the perspective of frequent testers. But would a player new to SOTA know this? They would never know their skills until after talking to the gypsy and appearing in a tutorial scene. Who is the game experience designed for?